I'm sick of hearing about people say "he's got chops but no groove" blah blah. Of course you're not going to hear a lot of groove in "extreme drumming" or death/black metal drumming. Different styles of music call for different styles of playing and sounds. Yes, groove is an important part of drumming and music, but fast metal doesn't call for it a lot. Just like when you play other styles of music you might not use certain techniques because it won't fit the music, and groove is no different. Metal now a days is very very fast and all about speed and heaviness. Metal is not meant to dance to, it's meant to slam your head and get out stress and aggression, fast tempo music. If that's not your thing then that's cool, very understandable. But do you think those drummers could play what they play if they didn't know about groove and also other styles of playing? A lot of what they play WOULD have some groove to it if the tempo wasn't so fast. A lot of people don't like death metal playing because it's not traditional, it's a fairly new concept, and it's not what (especially older players) are used to. And that's cool if you don't like it, if you can't get into it, whatever. But that doesn't mean the drummers are any less than great drummers of the past. Sure, nobody can top Morgenstein or Peart, and there are some sub-par metal drummers, but the really good ones shouldn't be discredited as a great drummer because the style they're KNOWN for playing doesn't include certain elements. You can't just throw any Morgenstein clip as a response to any metal drummer and automatically shut him down. I'm sure some metal drummers can do things that impress Ron, and I KNOW it's true the other way around since Morgenstein is incredble. And I'm not saying anyone is better than anyone else, I'm just saying playing in a different way doesn't make you any less. Derek Roddy for example, is known for being in Hate Eternal, that doesn't mean he goes home and only plays blast beats all day. I'm sure he also enjoys playing other kinds of music, and I'm sure he's good at it. These drummers have chosen metal as their career and it's just another style. All styles have great drummers. Listen to groups such as Nile, Cryptopsy and Vital Remains to hear, not just fast drumming, but really sound technical drumming at crazy fast speeds.