Metal drummers; groove

ytsejammer

New member
I'm sick of hearing about people say "he's got chops but no groove" blah blah. Of course you're not going to hear a lot of groove in "extreme drumming" or death/black metal drumming. Different styles of music call for different styles of playing and sounds. Yes, groove is an important part of drumming and music, but fast metal doesn't call for it a lot. Just like when you play other styles of music you might not use certain techniques because it won't fit the music, and groove is no different. Metal now a days is very very fast and all about speed and heaviness. Metal is not meant to dance to, it's meant to slam your head and get out stress and aggression, fast tempo music. If that's not your thing then that's cool, very understandable. But do you think those drummers could play what they play if they didn't know about groove and also other styles of playing? A lot of what they play WOULD have some groove to it if the tempo wasn't so fast. A lot of people don't like death metal playing because it's not traditional, it's a fairly new concept, and it's not what (especially older players) are used to. And that's cool if you don't like it, if you can't get into it, whatever. But that doesn't mean the drummers are any less than great drummers of the past. Sure, nobody can top Morgenstein or Peart, and there are some sub-par metal drummers, but the really good ones shouldn't be discredited as a great drummer because the style they're KNOWN for playing doesn't include certain elements. You can't just throw any Morgenstein clip as a response to any metal drummer and automatically shut him down. I'm sure some metal drummers can do things that impress Ron, and I KNOW it's true the other way around since Morgenstein is incredble. And I'm not saying anyone is better than anyone else, I'm just saying playing in a different way doesn't make you any less. Derek Roddy for example, is known for being in Hate Eternal, that doesn't mean he goes home and only plays blast beats all day. I'm sure he also enjoys playing other kinds of music, and I'm sure he's good at it. These drummers have chosen metal as their career and it's just another style. All styles have great drummers. Listen to groups such as Nile, Cryptopsy and Vital Remains to hear, not just fast drumming, but really sound technical drumming at crazy fast speeds.
 

zen_drummer

New member
ytsejammer":g8f50ik1 said:
I'm sick of hearing about people say "he's got chops but no groove" blah blah. Of course you're not going to hear a lot of groove in "extreme drumming" or death/black metal drumming.
Is there some reason in particular that extreme drumming or death/black metal is immune from grooving? A metal groove may be different than a jazz groove... but it's still a groove!

And you may be tired of hearing "he's got chops but no groove", but if somebody has great chops and no groove, what would be the correct thing to say?

Personally, I don't buy the premise that:
1) Groove is speed dependant and a drummer cannot groove at high speeds. COMPLETE NONSENSE! BeBop players play at LIGHTNING SPEEDS and they lay down a groove so wide 5 death metal players could fall in it and never come up for air.
2) Groove doesn't matter in certain styles of music. NONSENSE! Groove is groove... it always matters.
3) Technical playing and groove are mutually exclusive. NOT SO! Groove is not sacrificed by solid technical skills... it enhances them.

The best thing to do when you're sick of hearing people say something that you don't particularly like is to listen to them and see what they are trying to convey. If you hear it so often that you're sick of it, then there may be some truth to it!
 

break the prism

New member
zen_drummer":61adjlbq said:
ytsejammer":61adjlbq said:
I'm sick of hearing about people say "he's got chops but no groove" blah blah. Of course you're not going to hear a lot of groove in "extreme drumming" or death/black metal drumming.
Is there some reason in particular that extreme drumming or death/black metal is immune from grooving? A metal groove may be different than a jazz groove... but it's still a groove!

And you may be tired of hearing "he's got chops but no groove", but if somebody has great chops and no groove, what would be the correct thing to say?

Personally, I don't buy the premise that:
1) Groove is speed dependant and a drummer cannot groove at high speeds. COMPLETE NONSENSE! BeBop players play at LIGHTNING SPEEDS and they lay down a groove so wide 5 death metal players could fall in it and never come up for air.
2) Groove doesn't matter in certain styles of music. NONSENSE! Groove is groove... it always matters.
3) Technical playing and groove are mutually exclusive. NOT SO! Groove is not sacrificed by solid technical skills... it enhances them.

The best thing to do when you're sick of hearing people say something that you don't particularly like is to listen to them and see what they are trying to convey. If you hear it so often that you're sick of it, then there may be some truth to it!
agreed. a groove can be played in heavily syncopated 17/16 at 250 bpm and it's still a groove.
 

SGarrett

New member
zen_drummer":3vpe11kz said:
ytsejammer":3vpe11kz said:
I'm sick of hearing about people say "he's got chops but no groove" blah blah. Of course you're not going to hear a lot of groove in "extreme drumming" or death/black metal drumming.
Is there some reason in particular that extreme drumming or death/black metal is immune from grooving? A metal groove may be different than a jazz groove... but it's still a groove!

And you may be tired of hearing "he's got chops but no groove", but if somebody has great chops and no groove, what would be the correct thing to say?

Personally, I don't buy the premise that:
1) Groove is speed dependant and a drummer cannot groove at high speeds. COMPLETE NONSENSE! BeBop players play at LIGHTNING SPEEDS and they lay down a groove so wide 5 death metal players could fall in it and never come up for air.
2) Groove doesn't matter in certain styles of music. NONSENSE! Groove is groove... it always matters.
3) Technical playing and groove are mutually exclusive. NOT SO! Groove is not sacrificed by solid technical skills... it enhances them.

The best thing to do when you're sick of hearing people say something that you don't particularly like is to listen to them and see what they are trying to convey. If you hear it so often that you're sick of it, then there may be some truth to it!
Thank you, sir. :)
 

Empyrean Drums

New member
It's almost impossible to talk about extreme drumming without some one spouting off about how their favorite drummers are so much better because they have so much more "groove", when it's not even in the same ball park - or even the same sport. It's like having a conversation about the Superbowl, when some asshole starts going on about how many times Lance Armstrong won the Tour de France
The term Groove is thrown around so loosely that I pretty much stop listening anytime someone says it. It's a subjective term, yet it is most often presented as "fact".
 

dahlgrendrummer

New member
I think you guys get groove and feel mixed up personally. I've seen TONS of death metal, deathcore, and black metal drummers with groove. Derek Roddy for instance, Kevin Talley, Mike from Suffocation, Hannes Grossman, John Merryman, etc, etc. Now, I've seen a lot drummers who are technically great, but cannot feel a beat to save they're fucking lives, IE Mike Portnoy, and even know he is one of my favorite drummers, Brann Dailor from Mastodon can really hose a song over because his feel is whack at times, overplaying in clean melodic passages, etc etc, but thats kinda his MO. So thats my take on it...
 

EmbodiedDespair

New member
zen_drummer":1dn8gcug said:
ytsejammer":1dn8gcug said:
I'm sick of hearing about people say "he's got chops but no groove" blah blah. Of course you're not going to hear a lot of groove in "extreme drumming" or death/black metal drumming.
Is there some reason in particular that extreme drumming or death/black metal is immune from grooving? A metal groove may be different than a jazz groove... but it's still a groove!

And you may be tired of hearing "he's got chops but no groove", but if somebody has great chops and no groove, what would be the correct thing to say?

Personally, I don't buy the premise that:
1) Groove is speed dependant and a drummer cannot groove at high speeds. COMPLETE NONSENSE! BeBop players play at LIGHTNING SPEEDS and they lay down a groove so wide 5 death metal players could fall in it and never come up for air.
2) Groove doesn't matter in certain styles of music. NONSENSE! Groove is groove... it always matters.
3) Technical playing and groove are mutually exclusive. NOT SO! Groove is not sacrificed by solid technical skills... it enhances them.

The best thing to do when you're sick of hearing people say something that you don't particularly like is to listen to them and see what they are trying to convey. If you hear it so often that you're sick of it, then there may be some truth to it!
I couldn't agree more with this.

Take a band like Morbid Angel, for example. If you listen to some of their songs, take something like Thy Kingdom Come from the album Blessed are the Sick, that's extreme high tempo groove that Pete Sandoval Pulls off. Plus, there's actually a lot of tasteful double bass rolling in that song, another good example of tasteful double bass groove.

There are a whole universe of death and black metal bands that emphasize groove within their songs. It's just like it was said quoted above, it's a different kind of groove. Cryptopsy grooves hardcore from time to time.
 

amontholdDrums

New member
Ive seen clips of Derek Roddy playing jazz and such.. and hes def got the coordination and chops for it.. BUT.. hes not great at it.. nor was i impressed, it felt very bad and over drummed... i find it way more complicated to play latin patterns for 5 minutes then to play the same beat over and over again at really fast tempos.. lots of latin is in cut time so your really going in the 200 bpm section most of the time.. now when you get ppl like "el negro" taking the place of a whole ensemble of drummers.. thats cool... and groove.. AND its way more musical then metal garbage... blast beats arent drumming, its a work out and it shows stamina.. cool.. but i could do it just as well as the next guy if i cared to, im sure any true drummer could... set the met high.. go fast and take up intense jogging.. i do agree that there is a different "groove" in metal music and it DOES "groove" to an extent.. whether or not it "grooves" to certain ppl is a different story. once again we are at personal preference and this no longer needs to be discussed cuz metal drummers are great at that music... but dont cross them to jazz or latin.. doesnt work great.. anywho.. thats my 2 cents

Jeromy
 

xUODx

New member
i really dont agree with that...
there always has to be a groove no matter what kind of music, otherwise it's just an unstructured mess...
i play and listen to all types of metal, and there is always the need for a groove..
just listen to shadows fall, iced earth, or opeth, etc.
and there isnt any one type of meaning for the word "groove"... you can have a funk grove, or you can have a sixteenth note double bass groove at 210 bpm...its still a groove! but every drummer needs to know what to play, and when to play it...you cant go crazy all the time!! you'll find that the top drummers arent always playing something crazy...alot of times they'll just chill and play something really basic, then they'll use there crazy chops, and it really accents there playing and adds much more dynamics then if they just went crazy the whole time...
 

drumr4life509

New member
xUODx":37e4t4sa said:
i really dont agree with that...
there always has to be a groove no matter what kind of music, otherwise it's just an unstructured mess...
i play and listen to all types of metal, and there is always the need for a groove..
just listen to shadows fall, iced earth, or opeth, etc.
and there isnt any one type of meaning for the word "groove"... you can have a funk grove, or you can have a sixteenth note double bass groove at 210 bpm...its still a groove! but every drummer needs to know what to play, and when to play it...you cant go crazy all the time!! you'll find that the top drummers arent always playing something crazy...alot of times they'll just chill and play something really basic, then they'll use there crazy chops, and it really accents there playing and adds much more dynamics then if they just went crazy the whole time...
well said. i agree completely. and also for those looking for "groove" in metal opeth is a great example.
 

EmbodiedDespair

New member
drumr4life509":3utzgw3h said:
xUODx":3utzgw3h said:
i really dont agree with that...
there always has to be a groove no matter what kind of music, otherwise it's just an unstructured mess...
i play and listen to all types of metal, and there is always the need for a groove..
just listen to shadows fall, iced earth, or opeth, etc.
and there isnt any one type of meaning for the word "groove"... you can have a funk grove, or you can have a sixteenth note double bass groove at 210 bpm...its still a groove! but every drummer needs to know what to play, and when to play it...you cant go crazy all the time!! you'll find that the top drummers arent always playing something crazy...alot of times they'll just chill and play something really basic, then they'll use there crazy chops, and it really accents there playing and adds much more dynamics then if they just went crazy the whole time...
well said. i agree completely. and also for those looking for "groove" in metal opeth is a great example.
That's because Martin Lopez plays bad ass Jazz runs behind uber prog riffs.
 

MikeRowland

New member
Finally! Some recognition for the man! I agree that Martin Lopez has great chops and a fantastic feel for the music. Hands down, one of my favorite drummers and bands, even though I am not a metal drummer! There are others who can play harder and faster, but few who can make it groove the way he does.
 

jerocker

New member
The only metal that doesn't have groove to it is that bees in a jar sounding, recorded in a forest, hail satan black metal shit. I hate those guys because they don't even know how to play. They just go fast and hope for the best. The rest is all grove baby! IE the entire Boston scene/sound. And agreed, feel and groove are used too loosely and often confused. Some of my favorite drummers are technically amazing and are not so great with "groove." There's traces of it but who cares! Those drummers have their own signature sound and it's cool. I can pick those guys out in any album! NO groove however, means you're stiff and concentrating too hard in my opinion. Alot of times on extreme metal albums, the recordings are fixed by a program called beat detective. Some metal labels require it actually. So you can't base extreme metal groove off of recordings all the time. See them live and there's way more feel or groove to their playing.

Now to reply to, "Blast beats aren't drumming" is ridiculous. See above! But I digress. For bands that use them and don't suck ass, it's hard to play. There's different styles and ways to play it and different tempos and such. It's mentally and physically challenging. Play with wrists or finger bounce back. One foot or two. Up beat, down beat, "gravity blast" off of the rim. Triplet patterns... it goes on and on. Wrists are a work out. That's how I play them. If you're blessed with fast twitch fingers, blasts are played no differently than fast fills in jazz. Some of the absolute best metal drummers were actually raised and taught jazz. Play metal long enough and you can forget things, yes. But whatever. Plus the part about intense jogging is just stupid. I mean that's down right offensive! If you run on your pedals, you're playing it wrong. You have to work your ass off to develop the muscle control at different speeds. And if you get really fast, double strokes. A lot of drummers think they understand that, but they don't. That's the true talent of bass drum maniacs, control double strokes. Now Latin music is fun! Hard too. If you start out in metal, it is hard to cross into anything else. I know that personally. :) I can't play jazz to save my life. But i am decent at some latin stuff. Shuffle beats are fun too.
 

nailz224u

New member
Not that it matters but i appreciate watching metal or "what u call extreme drumming" LOL thats funny, drumming is extreme all around! Watch Steve Gadd or JOJO Mayer or Dave Weckl, youll see extreme drumming at its finest!! Put that shit to metal or extreme music, you cant get any more extreme than jazz!!! EXAMPLE Listen to extreme metal! Its all same volume same repetition lots of speed no real accents sure a cymbal crash or something but comon, lets do a blast beat why cause its all that seems to fit. As soon as you here the word metal now a days you think blast beat fast fills and thats it!!! Cool but boring just as fast as it sounds! But it does take work and great work to the guys who do it! OH AND DONT LET ME FORGET Mr. Mike Mangini holy shit talk about fast!!! DDDDDDDDAMB I also agree that Groove is very critical! Here is another way to look at it!! You want to sell albums, lets see what people buy!!! Top sellers groove shit like mad and you know why, cause you pull 10 people off the street and play them metal blast and 8 to 9 will run out of the room or look at you like what is that, sounds like awesome players but what is that!!! Not that its not good but the typical non musician cannot hear what is happening, they want what they can relate to!!! so choose what you are going to shoot for as a pro musician it will aid you in the end!!! There is a reason Derrek Roddy quit hate eternal he said it himself on a clinic he did the speed factor had been proven for him time to move on!!!!!
 

SGarrett

New member
Drumming is NOT a sport, it's an art. It shouldn't be competitive unless someone's literally trying to take your job from you. If it sounds like a drum machine or a technical exercise it doesn't groove. If a drummer is bragging about "people think I'm a machine" he doesn't groove. Playing a groove and playing with groove are not mutually inclusive. The difference between playing a beat and playing a groove is the feeling it's played with or "being able to groove". It's not an open-ended term. Groove quite simply means that you're playing with feeling. It's honestly as simple as that. All of this discussion about "groove doesn't really mean anything anyway" is freaking hilarious. :D
 

downshifter99

New member
When you put up a post saying "Metal drummers groove?" makes me ask what type of metal are you talking about.

If you go into the doom/stoner stuff you get nothing but groove...and it is metal.

Listen to Acid King,The Sword,Devil to Pay,Pillcrusher,ect....all FAT grooves.

I started out in the early/mid 80's with punk/hardcore(not like the crap they're passing off these days)and it was very fast and hard.

I personally hate this blast-beat crap...I truly find pointless and the only talent is that they have speed...I find it as crap to my ears.I mean hey,good luck with all that bullsh%t and sure it sells...but in my book that don't mean it's good...it just means people have lowered their standards.

I mean no disrespect to anyone but,I truly think it sucks...period.
 

ytsejammer

New member
Sorry but there is no groove in metal drumming. Perhaps what I said was misunderstood. I'm not saying fast music cannot have groove, I am saying, with fast metal (which is different from fast jazz, bebop) there isn't much groove. To me, groove is going beyond technical ability. It's the feel of the music that makes you wanna move and, well, groove, get down. You can also dance to music with a groove. Zen drummer, I do know you are very well respected on this board and I am not going to say you are wrong, or get angry, or anything, but you say all music has groove. My point is that the brand of metal and playing we are talking about here is fairly new (within the last 20 years) and I don't think it has groove. It's new, and before it all music did have some kind of groove. Everything I see people not liking about metal is the lack of groove, and since metal doesn't have much of a feeling to it, other than overwhelmingly fast that music that makes you want to bang your head, it must not have much, if any, groove. I also don't remembering in my post, ever stating that groove wasn't important. Groove is everything, and of course groove enhances your technical ability. I don't remember saying otherwise. If I came across that way that's not what I meant.

Blast beats have no groove. My point was that metal (and I mean death/black/extreme metal) doesn't have any groove, or at least, it has less groove than any other style of music. So when people pick of metal player's for not having groove, all I was saying was that of course they dont, their music doesn't call for it. Their music calls for a much more straightforward, mechanical style of playing. Just like you wouldn't expect a country drummer to do a lot of fast complicated stuff (s/he still might though), you shouldn't expect a lot of groove in metal. I saw a country group called Brooks and Dunn perform. Good live band, rockin. Their drummer, solid. Good drummer. But, as someone who is not so bad at drums myself, I didn't see him do much I couldn't do myself. But I still didn't say, "Ah this guy is playing simple, where's his double bass, complicated fills, etc." Because I know his music doesn't call for it, it's not drum heavy, it's not as complicated and loud as metal and prog. And I still recognized that his drumming wasn't easy, and that it was good. Because I understood his style.

There is plenty of groove in the melodic instruments of death metal, especially guitars. But since this is a drum forum I figured we all knew I was talking drums, and Necrophagist drums are not groovy. I have never heard a metal drummer play, drums alone, and thought "wow this guys got a lot of feeling and groove to his playing".
 
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