Math Question: 16th note accent combinations

rlrrll

New member
Does anyone know the formula for figuring out permutations of notes?

Specifically, how do I figure out the amount of 1, 2 , 3, and 4 note grouping of 8th notes will fit in a bar 2/4?

Algebra whiz needed!!

=============================

I think they way I asked this question the first time is a little confusing. Now that I know the answer, let me restate it. . .



Is there a math formula that will tell me the combinations of notes possible in any time signature?
For example, in 2/4 time, how many 16th note combo's are possible by accenting 3 notes in the bar. Or 4 notes.
In 7/8, home many combinations of 5 accents are there within those 7 8th notes?

Is there an easy way to figure this out? (YES!).




tc
 

dave lynch

New member
Well it would be 1&2&...That will be four 8th notes within a count of two 1/4 notes..!! A 2/4 bar is only two 1/4 notes..so that means there will be four 8th notes withinin the bar...Ummm bar meaning one measure..!!! 2/4 time sig is used for a faster up beat tempo..Ummm..Polka comes to mind..it my seem that the 8th notes are more like 16ths in 2/4...!!!
 

BillRayDrums

New member
Do you mean the polyrhythmic equation?

If you want to play x against y.....


start with a pulse of y
break into groups of x
play every "y-th" note.

3 against 5

Start with a pulse of 5

break into groups of 3

play every 5th note.

Why is it this knowledge you seek?

Otherwise there are 4 8th notes in 2/4...that's pretty much a static given.
 

Rob the Drummer

New member
1&2& that's all there is to it, unless you are doing trips, then you could group in 1tata 2tata, which would be 6. I'm with Bill Ray, what are you trying to figure out? It's really not a complex thing.
 

rlrrll

New member
My question in not "How do I count 8th notes".

It's "How many 8th Note bass drum patters can be played in 2/4 time. Assume we have 2 on the snare and straight 8ths on the hihat. I want to know a mathematical equation that will tell how many note groupings I can write.


For example . .
In a bar of 2/4, there are 8 possible ways to play one note one the bd.
There a about 28 ways to play any two notes, 56 to play any 3 notes, and 60 to play any 4 notes.

Is there an algebraic formula that I can use to know how many permutations there are in any time signature give any number of accents??

thanks!!!!!!!!
 

dave lynch

New member
Rob the Drummer":3nh3ukvu said:
1&2& that's all there is to it, unless you are doing trips, then you could group in 1tata 2tata, which would be 6. I'm with Bill Ray, what are you trying to figure out? It's really not a complex thing.
please do post it when you know...Ummm..I guess that there are a few things to calculate..!!

1. how many beats (notes ) per measure...Example: four 8th notes in 2/4 time
2. how many beats can be played in the measure...Example: 1,2 ,3 or 4
3. how many beats can be accented...Example..1,2,3 or 4
4. how many accent combos..Ummm..not there yet haha
5. Then add four to the equation for zero accents

just wandering..is it something like (4x4) 4 x 4 sq + 4 ?

Ughhh..I'm confused Let us know..Thanks !!
 

SGarrett

New member
rlrrll":2k9g5dio said:
My question in not "How do I count 8th notes".

It's "How many 8th Note bass drum patters can be played in 2/4 time. Assume we have 2 on the snare and straight 8ths on the hihat. I want to know a mathematical equation that will tell how many note groupings I can write.


For example . .
In a bar of 2/4, there are 8 possible ways to play one note one the bd.
There a about 28 ways to play any two notes, 56 to play any 3 notes, and 60 to play any 4 notes.

Is there an algebraic formula that I can use to know how many permutations there are in any time signature give any number of accents??

thanks!!!!!!!!
If you know that much, is there a reason why you can't write it out and find out for yourself? That way you have something that will actually help you by having all of the patterns right in front of you instead of just a number.
 

BillRayDrums

New member
SGarrett":27u36810 said:
rlrrll":27u36810 said:
My question in not "How do I count 8th notes".

It's "How many 8th Note bass drum patters can be played in 2/4 time. Assume we have 2 on the snare and straight 8ths on the hihat. I want to know a mathematical equation that will tell how many note groupings I can write.


For example . .
In a bar of 2/4, there are 8 possible ways to play one note one the bd.
There a about 28 ways to play any two notes, 56 to play any 3 notes, and 60 to play any 4 notes.

Is there an algebraic formula that I can use to know how many permutations there are in any time signature give any number of accents??

thanks!!!!!!!!
If you know that much, is there a reason why you can't write it out and find out for yourself? That way you have something that will actually help you by having all of the patterns right in front of you instead of just a number.
Yeah no kidding....There's only 8 notes.

Here's your answer. Rhythmic subdivisions. Simple.

3+3+2
3+2+3
2+3+3
2+2+2+2

IF you don't understand that then you need to learn counting, for any further information may not do you any good.
 

FiestyRedDrummEr

New member
Rob the Drummer":35phggdi said:
In a 2/4 measure, there can only be 4 8th notes, not 8. There would be 8 16th notes tho...
Yeah...
So you guys got me lost.

You know if you're trying to find out how many 8th note patterns to play why don't you just write them all down? Thats what I would do. That way I could actually have them all written out on some staff paper for future reference. Its better to know what you can do. And not just how many you can do.
I'm not trying to cop out and say I don't know. Because I probably do if i sat here and tried to figure it out. I'm just saying sometimes its better to get the same answer the harder way. That way the lesson stays with you longer. (I was a rebelious hard headed kid)

But then again it also matter if you want triplet 8th note patterns, or you want to put in some syncopation. Then that changes somewhat.
Try writing some stuff out. There is nothing in a basic 2/4 that hasn't already been done.
 

dave lynch

New member
I think there's like 130 different combos to play four 8th notes on the kick in 2/4 time with an accent or no accent on any givin note played..!!
 

rlrrll

New member
Actually, I have written them all out. I'm just curious to know the math equation so that I know I've got them all without going over the exercise with a fine tooth comb again and again.

I'm sorry if I haven't posed my question clearly. It seems like some people are mis-reading it or just aren't getting my point -- again probably because of the way I asked the question.

I've posted the same question on a algebra discussions group (te=hey really do exist!). Once I find the equsion I'll be sure to share it with you all.

Here is the problem one more time:

Were playing in 2/4 time.
Were playing 16th notes on the HiHat. That gives us 8 notes (1e&a2e&a)
Were playing 2 on the snare.

Were gonna play two note figures on the bass drum.

First is "1e_ _" on the bd.
Then, "1_&_ "
Then "1_ _ a"

and so on until we've played every possible combination of 2 notes on the bass drum.

The are 28 combinations using 2 notes.

How would I show that in an algebraic equation???

There, I hope that makes sense.
 

BillRayDrums

New member
rlrrll":2fan7hri said:
Actually, I have written them all out. I'm just curious to know the math equation so that I know I've got them all without going over the exercise with a fine tooth comb again and again.

I'm sorry if I haven't posed my question clearly. It seems like some people are mis-reading it or just aren't getting my point -- again probably because of the way I asked the question.

I've posted the same question on a algebra discussions group (te=hey really do exist!). Once I find the equsion I'll be sure to share it with you all.

Here is the problem one more time:

Were playing in 2/4 time.
Were playing 16th notes on the HiHat. That gives us 8 notes (1e&a2e&a)
Were playing 2 on the snare.

Were gonna play two note figures on the bass drum.

First is "1e_ _" on the bd.
Then, "1_&_ "
Then "1_ _ a"

and so on until we've played every possible combination of 2 notes on the bass drum.

The are 28 combinations using 2 notes.

How would I show that in an algebraic equation???

There, I hope that makes sense.
Tell you what- Go listen to JR Robinson on some old Rufus- "Tell Me Something Good". That's really all you need to survive!

There's a book written by Gary Chaffee called "Time-functioning Patterns" and it's every 16th note combination written out in notation onjust the bass drum and snare on 2 (the illustrations are in 2/4).

He has you keep a journal of what hi-hat/ride combinations you overlay onto the snare/kick pattern.

As far as "algebraic" equations, I can sorta see what you want; an algorithm perhaps?
 

rlrrll

New member
I posed this Question at freemathhelp.com. "Opag" had this answer!!

Apparently, there is this concept called "The Pascal Triangle" which works this out. You can see it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle

So the answer is 8 permutations with 1 note, 28 with 2 notes, 56 w/ 3 notes, and 70 with four.

OK, so back to drumming and enough with higher math!!!


tc
 
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