Lombardo/Bostaph

Rockula!

New member
First of all, I'm not starting this as a "Who's better" thread but I'm sure it will denegrate into one so here goes

Slayer has always been what I consider to be the most intense metal band ever
Yeah, you can play faster, tune down lower, scream more, but you will never match the inensity of Slayer
They found that line and stood on it
Anyone who crosses it, is just overdoing it
Lombardo gets credit from me for helping to define the genre and make it more widespread
Here's where it gets to the comparison

Lombardo was great but when Bostaph came along, he helped them to grow
At that point, all Lombardo could do was play very fast and take a trip around the toms at every change just to break up the monotony
Bostaph enabled the band to change their style a bit to adapt to the new types of metal that were quickly becoming very popular
Once Pantera broke it huge, Slayer's music seemed to incorporate more groove oriented riffs
This is something Lombardo never seemed to do very well
Bostaph not only locked into a very powerful groove but he was way more technically proficiant and though in directions that Lombardo never did
Yeah, "Divine Intervention" was a transitional album but there are no two better albums than "Diabolus" and "God Hates Us All"

Lombardo, meanwhile went out and played will all types of musicians and became very well rounded himself
However, he comes back for "Christ Illusion" and what happens?
Same old Slayer
I went to see them just after Lombardo came back (before the new album)
I saw the "Reign In Blood" tour the first time
I didn't need to see it again
The entire show was a "greatest hits before Dave left the band", a couple of Bostaph era songs (which were all easy thrashers) and then ......SIDE 2 OF REIGN IN BLOOD
What a disapointment
It's as if the three Bostaph albums never existed
I couldn't believe it
I thought Lombardo had grown
I thought he was light years ahead of himself when he left
What happened?

Then "Christ Illusion" comes out and it is basically "Seasons in the Abyss" part 2
I still could not understand why Lombardo and the band would take a step backwards
Then I read the issue with Lombardo in Modern Drummer
He alluded to the fact that Kerry King (who pretty much runs Slayer now) wanted him to play things a certain way
I translate that to "the old way"

It is my opinion that Slayer is about to hang it up
This album is a gimmie for the old fans that wish Slayer had never progressed and want everything to stick to the old formula
Dave may have more credits under his belt but, based purely on recorded material, Bostaph will always be my favorite of the two
 

Eiren

New member
I'm not sure to be honest.

I think Slayer really innovated. Hell Awaits and Reign In Blood were undoubtedly hugely ground breaking and influential albums. Bostaph and Lombardo are both great drummers.

Slayer were at their best when it was total raw aggression, as per Hell Awaits and Reign In Blood. It was intense music. South Of Heaven was a more doom laden brooding classic, and Seasons In The Abyss was a good mixture of both aggression and foreboding doom elements.

Divine Intervention had some great tracks, but also some forgettable filler. This is where I believe Slayer should have stopped.

Everything they've released since, in my opinion, is very nu-metal/metalcore influenced. It doesn't contain much of the Slayer of old, and that's the raw aggression. "Diabolus" especially was terribly cheesy.

When they said that "Christ Illusion" was going to go back to old school Slayer, it perked my interest back up again... but once more, it was a pale ghost of the former Slayer.

Slayer "hung it up" for me around the time of Divine Intervention.

I don't blame Bostaph though. He is a great player. I just believe he didn't have the classic song writing to work with.
 

screamkevin

New member
It's kind of funny to me that when a band progresses sometimes, they get blasted for changing their sound, or their songwriting style, or whatever. Then when they go back to what they were, another segment of the fanbase is alienated. Remember way back when Van Halen came out with the 1984 album? It was so keyboard-heavy that there was an outcry and everyone was chanting "sell out". It ended up being a new direction for the band, and if I remember right, they still sold a few copies of their records after that. Same thing happened with Metallica, when the Black album dropped. No prog-metal 9 minute epics, and they got blasted for it.

Just interesting, I think. Good thread.
 

Eiren

New member
I don't think either Slayer or Metallica have successfully gone back to what they were though?

Sometimes "progression" isn't a good thing for some bands (i.e. changing their sound loses why they were great in the first place!).
 

Johnny Cat

New member
I would pick Lombardo over Bostaph, though they are both great. I agree Slayer have seen FAR better days.

As for bands progressing, I don't mind it so much as long as the music they put out is still quality material, different or not. I won't slag a band just for changing, nor for just putting out the same style of material. When it starts to sound forced and no longer genuine, that's when I start to become disappointed.
 

drmrdude04

New member
first off, divine intervention is hands down. the best slayer album ever. if they would have kept dave for that album, then it would have been their death. paul was a breath of fresh air. he was WAY more talented, that is for sure. diablous and god hates us all are great CDs but i have to say, christ illusion just doesnt cut it. it does sound like seasons all over again except with better production, which doesnt make it impressive. its like re mastering the wizard of OZ.
when i finally got to see slayer it was was dave had just came back and i saw him attempt to play disciple and i have to say it was atrocious. it was worse than listening to a beginner try to play along with green day's dookie album. and to all who think tre cool from green day isnt a good drummer and dave lombardo is a better drummer than paul bostaph. go kill yourself and never touch a drum kit ever again.
 

Rockula!

New member
I personally loved the stuff they did when they progressed or changed (depending on your perspective)
I completely respect the stuff they did beforehand but the formula was getting a little worn out for me

Slayer tried to be a band that changes WITH the times instead of FOR the times (like Metallica)
Some people want to hear the same album over and over again
That's why we have AC/DC and The Ramones
Hell, no one seemed to bitch too much when Mikey D joined Motorhead
I never thought they had it in 'em but it Motorhead sounds good with the Mikey D blitz

I just think they squandered a chance for Lombardo to show what he can do since he went out and broadened his horizons
 

twisteddrummer

New member
Gene Hoglan can play rings around both of them. If you want good Bostaph go listen to forbidden. Kerry king is why DAve left slayer in the first place. What fun is it to play in a band when you get no input? Slayer writes metal for kids who shop at hot topic now anyway. Slayer is still a great live band, but I have never heard them play a lot of their new material at any of their shows. Know why? Cause people would boo them off the stage. Slayer is smart-they know their old material is what the majority of the people in their audience wants to hear, and they can sell albums with out playing any new material , so everybody is happy. Go ahaead nu metalers-bash me.
 

DrumFiend0206

New member
I would choose Lombardo over Bostaph, just for the sheer intensity, and feeling that Dave brings to playing. His stuff with Slayer, Grip Inc., and Fantomas really show that he is a great drummer. I don't think that Gene Hoglan can "play rings around them", but he too is a great drummer.
 

Warrdogg

New member
I have been a huge Slayer fan for more years than I can remember. Dave was always one of my favorite drummers and a huge influence to me. When Bostaph joined Slayer and I heard him play for the first time I was amazed. He simply blew my mind with what he was playing. God Hates Us All is now my favorite cd of all time. I was sad to hear that Paul was leaving and even sadder that Dave was coming back. Listening to him play nothing but 16ths and some boring fills makes it hard to even listen to Christ Illusion (which I think is awful). When I saw Slayer for the Unholy Alliance tour there wasnt one song played that Paul was on. I've heard Dave try to play some of the songs that Paul did and it was a poor attempt at best. I hope Slayer never tries to play Gemini with Dave again because I cringed at him playing it. Paul is all metal but has alot more feel and a ton more groove. And his double bass is legendary.
 

captainasshead

New member
you know, when Divine Intervention came out, i dug it even though lombardo wasn't with them any more just cause it was SLAYER (ok, original lombado fan here). but the more i listened and saw them live, the more i started to dislike bostaph's playing....his drum sound is (in my opinion of course) kinda flat and overly muted, plus lombardo just seemed a LOT smoother with the faster stuff. i caught a few shows where bostaph just wasn't having good nights at all and messed up a few songs pretty bad, and that didn't help.

but i have to admit, Diabolus and God Hates Us All are just such rip-ass albums that i definitely found a new respect for bostaph...although i still don't like his drum sounds unfortunately (same boxy sounds like from the old forbidden discs), he really did enable a new dimension to slayer, and he really rips on those past two albums with his solid grooves and colorful fills and ideas.

i couldn't believe it when they announced lombardo was back in the band and was completely psyched to see the tour and hear more albums. the initial tour with him back was great. it was great to hear some of the older songs on this tour...esp. some of the more obscure, faster songs that they NEVER played with bostaph...

but WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED AFTER **THAT**?! i was totally pumped that slayer had recorded a new album with lombardo finally and was equally pumped to to see them on tour together again. what a bummer when i actually heard the album though! boring, boring, boring...nothing new or innovative and nothing impressive at all unfortunately. i gave it a number of listens and just couldn't even find ONE song that was like "ok, THIS song rocks though...." And with dave - he has grown a lot with all the different projects he's played for over the years, so i was hoping to hear him really tear it up and show everyone "THIS is why i'm back..." but nope. boring, same ol' recipe slayer stuff. although, i had heard from a number of people about how slayer works and that they pretty much tell dave/paul/whoever "this is how the drums go" and that's it, so you can't totally blame someone when he's paid to play what they want (similar to lots of things in life....tv, movies, commercials, graphic design, etc.....great artists/talents commonly have to do crappy work cause their clients want what they want THEIR way only...and that's what they're paying people to do)

Then i go see the show, and besides the fact that they played Silent Scream (yeah!!!!!!), it TOTALLY sucked! after i had just read the day before about how the band was so psyched to be back on tour and how ready and practiced they were....they messed up like THREE songs at the NJ show, plus they just had no energy or zest for performing...barely spoke a word between songs, short set, and all of a sudden "good night, thank you..." and they were done with no encore. and like someone mentioned above - they played all old stuff, completely skipping all the bostaph-era songs.

so i don't know. i've come to realize that lombardo and bostaph are both great drummers, just each with their own unique strong/weak points. but slayer, however, seems to be just getting old and tired. i mean, don't get me wrong - what are those guys, 40-something now? i find it impressive for ANY band that's still playing after 20-something years to continue on and keep recording/touring, esp. in the metal realm. but i'd rather them just stop than keep trying to pump out more turdy albums and half-assed shows.

(and reading the last few posts, i can ONLY hands down agree: gene hoglan is a friggin' monster and can definitely run circles around either of these guys....this coming from someone who picked up double bass because of dave lombardo...)
 

DrummerByron

New member
I will start by saying that Dave Lombardo is my main influence in drumming. I have been a fan of Slayers since Reign In Blood came out. There was no band or album that sounded like that before or even since then. The double bass break in Angel Of Death is one of the fastest grooves I have ever heard. Then South Of Heaven came out and Dave’s drumming improved 10 fold from Reign. Finally Seasons In The Abyss hit and it was like God himself was drumming for Slayer (ironically enough). So when Dave announced his departure from Slayer I thought it was over. Then they announced Paul was taking over so I decided to give the new album a try because I liked Paul's drumming. So when Devine Intervention dropped I really liked the drumming, but the music was horrid. But I picked up Diabolis and it was great. I loved it and at that point I was really happy with Grip Inc and thought all was right with the world. God Hates Us All was/is great and so was Grips Solidify. I did not care anymore if Dave was not in Slayer, I thought Paul was great for Slayer and Dave had a great career in all of his side projects. Then Paul left and Dave was back in, so I was excited about the new album and I went to see Slayer at Ozzfest 04' and they were awesome, and I thought Dave did a great job on Payback and God Hated Us All. Then I heard Christ Illusion and now I want Paul back in Slayer and Dave back in Grip. I think King gave Paul more creative leeway and I honestly believe that C.I. would have been a better album with Paul, or if King gave more leeway to Dave. I am hoping that Dave will get frustrated once again and realize that King is kind of an asshole and quit and start drumming to his full potential again.
 

Luv2drumin661

New member
Well, As I can see most people have different opions of these two outstanding drummers for Slayer. I am a believer in the theory that bands need to change and evolve, hopefully into better musicians. But I also understand that some bands have that core following that cringes at the thought of change. I think Dave pushed himself into being a better drummer by working with different styles of music and musicians. I think Paul brought a fresh perspective to Slayer when he joined by changing and modernizing a potent and time tested sound. With that said, Imagine Slayer Unplugged? or with an Orchestra? or with Synths and Keyboards?
Would you still knock them for trying something new?

I cant say anything bad about neither, drumming is an art and not a competition. Everyone see's things from their own point of view.

Just my $.02


P.S. All bands create a bad album every now and then, Motley Crue made a career out of it.
 

Rockula!

New member
Ha Ha Ha
That's friggin' hilarious and the book "The Dirt" explains why Motley Crue's albums suck so much

It is nice to have people agree with me on the Lombardo/Bostaph subject
I have beaten my head against the wall talking to Slayer fans about this subject and all they can say is "Lombardo rules!" because they have no idea regarding the actual musc
All they know is that Bostaph threw in too much odd time and it made it harder to MOSH DUDE!

Yeah, it's great that most of you agree but it is better when you guys give informed opinions to back it up
It's easier to accept a contrary position when a person knows their shit

I don't feel so alone in the world now
I think I'm getting kinda misty.....
Give me a sec..........
Okay
Now I'm better
 

Mikkey

New member
When Slayer was good, damn they were good. Unfortunately they lost their focus, and this happened even before Bostaph came to the band. I like Bostaph's drumming style because it is kinda nuanced and less straight forward than Lombardo, but I think Lombardo can connect better with the rest of the band. I like Bostaph better in Exodus anyways (then again Tom Hunting was no minor league drummer).

The problem Slayer has is that their fans control their music and they are always in a creative straight jacket and won't toy with their sound because it might risk loosing some fans in the process. Take for example when South of Heaven (my favorite) came out in '88. People wanted RIB part 2 but that's not what they got. And the best reviews that ablum garnered at the time were lukewarm. Since that time Slayer learned a lesson and what they could and couldn't do with their music and still have an audience. (Listen to SOH again and tell me Lombardo doesn't have some of the best fills there.)

Another thing is that by the time of Season in the Abyss, other bands mainly from Tampa Bay, FL were coming around with a different take on metal and the torch was passed from the old guard to the new. By the time Divine came out this was even more true. Bands like Death by that time showcased premium talent and already had an extensive catalogue where the sound variations between first and last were wide.

And the assertion that Gene Hoglan "could do rings around these guys" I think is foolish. Who the hell do you think the drum tech was for the 1985 Slayer Hell Awaits tour? Yep. Same guy. Back in the old days the Thrash scene was like a big family. A point that I guess is lost today. Plus, the early Dark Angel stuff is weak compared to the later stuff. That's something I've always noticed about some drummers...they find their guy and hold everyone else to that standard.

All-in-all I'm glad Dave is back in Slayer, but I doubt they'll make anything worth while that isn't at best mediocre. In a way Slayer kind of destroyed any future career Dave had with other bands since when most people think Dave Lombardo they think Slayer. I mean, no one listened to the mighty Grip, INC. Otherwise why would those albums be out of print?

One more thing, Dave is excellent on the 1999 Testament album The Gathering.
 

Mikkey

New member
Rockula!":imbxd4hm said:
I saw the "Reign In Blood" tour the first time
I didn't need to see it again
The entire show was a "greatest hits before Dave left the band"
Wait, you saw the original Reign in Blood (late) '86-'87 tour? Then you would know that the drumming duties were given off to Tony Scaglione of New Jersey's Whiplash for most of those shows...right? So how would it be the same seeing Dave doing the same stuff if it was a different drummer the first time?
 

Eiren

New member
In the latest Rhythm magazine, there's a metal special... and inside, 95% of the "metal legends" all named Dave Lombardo as their biggest drumming influence (Chris Adler, Chris Pennie, Joey Jordison, and the Killswitch Engage and In Flames drummers). Sean Reinert was the other drummer mentioned a lot.

So never underestimate the impact and influence Lombardo has had.
 

Rockula!

New member
Mikkey":207mlgha said:
Rockula!":207mlgha said:
I saw the "Reign In Blood" tour the first time
I didn't need to see it again
The entire show was a "greatest hits before Dave left the band"
Wait, you saw the original Reign in Blood (late) '86-'87 tour? Then you would know that the drumming duties were given off to Tony Scaglione of New Jersey's Whiplash for most of those shows...right? So how would it be the same seeing Dave doing the same stuff if it was a different drummer the first time?
That was more of a sarcastic statement
I was pointing out that I was dissapointed with the fact that they were doing absolutely NO newer songs and just re-hashing their old stuff
I remember the in store they did at the record store next door to the Arcadia Theater where they played that year
Scaglione was a bit uncomfortable and didn't want to sign anyone's albums saying "Im not on this"
It was a cool show of respect for Lombardo

How many drummers did they use (besides Bostaph) when Dave would leave?
I know he left several times
 

DrummerByron

New member
Rockula!":2rf9pli2 said:
Mikkey":2rf9pli2 said:
Rockula!":2rf9pli2 said:
I saw the "Reign In Blood" tour the first time
I didn't need to see it again
The entire show was a "greatest hits before Dave left the band"
Wait, you saw the original Reign in Blood (late) '86-'87 tour? Then you would know that the drumming duties were given off to Tony Scaglione of New Jersey's Whiplash for most of those shows...right? So how would it be the same seeing Dave doing the same stuff if it was a different drummer the first time?
That was more of a sarcastic statement
I was pointing out that I was dissapointed with the fact that they were doing absolutely NO newer songs and just re-hashing their old stuff
I remember the in store they did at the record store next door to the Arcadia Theater where they played that year
Scaglione was a bit uncomfortable and didn't want to sign anyone's albums saying "Im not on this"
It was a cool show of respect for Lombardo

How many drummers did they use (besides Bostaph) when Dave would leave?
I know he left several times
Paul Bostaph - drums (1992-1996, 1997-2001)
Jon Dette - drums (1996-1997)
Tony Scaglione - drums (1986-1987)

[/quote]
All-in-all I'm glad Dave is back in Slayer, but I doubt they'll make anything worth while that isn't at best mediocre. In a way Slayer kind of destroyed any future career Dave had with other bands since when most people think Dave Lombardo they think Slayer. I mean, no one listened to the mighty Grip, INC. Otherwise why would those albums be out of print?

One more thing, Dave is excellent on the 1999 Testament album The Gathering. [/quote]
Well, I for one have every Grip Inc album and I am very happy that Dave left slayer when he did and make those incredible albums, not to mention an instructional DVD. Dave is excellent on anything he does, even the new Slayer album is really good drumming. So what if it's not up to his full potential, go back and listen to Supremist and tell me if anyone can touch the speed of that song and make it sound flawlwess like he did.
I don't honestly believe that Dave will adandon his solo projects for Slayer. He knows how to be in more than 1 band at a time.
 

DrummerByron

New member
Rockula!":1m8agpcp said:
Mikkey":1m8agpcp said:
Rockula!":1m8agpcp said:
I saw the "Reign In Blood" tour the first time
I didn't need to see it again
The entire show was a "greatest hits before Dave left the band"
Wait, you saw the original Reign in Blood (late) '86-'87 tour? Then you would know that the drumming duties were given off to Tony Scaglione of New Jersey's Whiplash for most of those shows...right? So how would it be the same seeing Dave doing the same stuff if it was a different drummer the first time?
That was more of a sarcastic statement
I was pointing out that I was dissapointed with the fact that they were doing absolutely NO newer songs and just re-hashing their old stuff
I remember the in store they did at the record store next door to the Arcadia Theater where they played that year
Scaglione was a bit uncomfortable and didn't want to sign anyone's albums saying "Im not on this"
It was a cool show of respect for Lombardo

How many drummers did they use (besides Bostaph) when Dave would leave?
I know he left several times
Paul Bostaph - drums (1992-1996, 1997-2001)
Jon Dette - drums (1996-1997)
Tony Scaglione - drums (1986-1987)

[/quote]
All-in-all I'm glad Dave is back in Slayer, but I doubt they'll make anything worth while that isn't at best mediocre. In a way Slayer kind of destroyed any future career Dave had with other bands since when most people think Dave Lombardo they think Slayer. I mean, no one listened to the mighty Grip, INC. Otherwise why would those albums be out of print?

One more thing, Dave is excellent on the 1999 Testament album The Gathering. [/quote]

Well, I for one have every Grip Inc album and I am very happy that Dave left slayer when he did and make those incredible albums, not to mention an instructional DVD. Dave is excellent on anything he does, even the new Slayer album is really good drumming. So what if it's not up to his full potential, go back and listen to Supremist and tell me if anyone can touch the speed of that song and make it sound flawlwess like he did.
I don't honestly believe that Dave will adandon his solo projects for Slayer. He knows how to be in more than 1 band at a time.
And yes that Testament album is one of my top 3 favorites form that band.
 
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