Damping the toms?

Pearl, Tama, Yamaha, DW, Ludwig, Premier, Mapex etc.

Moderator: Moderators

Mike T
drumming adept
drumming adept
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:08 pm
Location: Idaho

Post Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:43 pm

zen_drummer wrote:
Mike T wrote:I like the PUNCH of dampened drums they cut through the mix they do not disapear into it,you get more individual sounding drums dampened because they each have a distinct sound while lots of overtones or ring tend to blend the sounds together taking away from each drums individual sound...my two and 1/2 cents..merry xmas everyone


Your two and 1/2 cents may be suffering from the ill-effects of inflation...

1) Dampened drums don't cut through the mix, they get lost in it.
2) All the discussions about shell construction and materials, bearing edges and drum "tone" that take place on this site point towards the fact that drums are supposed to ring... it's the ringing that get's them to project through the mix. This is a pretty well established fact.
3) Drums sound different in the audience than they do on the stage right next to them. It begs the question... who are you playing for? If you're performing for a crowd, make them sound good IN THE CROWD.... they'll need to ring on stage if they have a chance to be discernable in the mix and project to the crowd. If you're playing your drums so you can sound like a bad 1970's recording ON STAGE, then dampen the hell out of them. The good news is the only person that will hear them is you, and you seem to prefer the sound of drums that mimic the sound of the shipping boxes they came in, so you should be pretty pleased with that sound. But hey, if thats the effect you're after, knock yourself out.

But thanks for the Christmas wishes.


your points 1,2 and 3 are of course your opinion and by all means you have the right to have it ..christmas wishes still apply have a good one but i know i would not enjoy listening to you on a stage with lots of overtones in your drums..but each to his own what you say is just like what i say it is only opinion...I have been playing live music for over 40 years..and i still do it the same way..i still know what I like it might not be what you like but then i never said my opinion was fact..peace to you bro.

PS notice i never bashed your ideas or made smart A$$ remarks i will play my BOXES you Play YOURS...
User avatar
Shalaq
session drummer
session drummer
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:24 am
Location: Poland

Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:11 am

I agree with Zen_d. Drummers have a different sound of the kit than the audience. I played a gig once where the dums were unmiked(even the kick!). The kit sounded like crap on stage, but when you got to it and played it, you could hear some overtones. Drums have to ring to sound good on stage. Try to get a full sounding(longer sounding) note with a clean tone. That's the way to go when gigging.
Jojo Mayer even goes further- he tunes his toms with zero muffling and on gigs he tunes them a little bit higher than usual, so that they project better to the audience.
Mapex, Istanbul Agop, Attack, Vater/O4D.
I want an endorsement :)
Quick link to the search engine:
http://www.drumsmylife.com/search.php
User avatar
manicdrums
beginner
beginner
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:55 am
Location: Orlando Fl/Nashville Tn

Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:08 am

Dampin'? We don' need no stinkin' dampin'!
Personally I try to damp them as little as possible. With a little juggling in the relative pitches of top & bottom heads, you can do a lot!

If you are having problems finding out the relative pitches of each head, here's a tip:

place your fingers in the centre of one head, while tapping the OUTSIDE edge of the other. This will give you an overtone. Then do the opposite (holding the centre of the head you just tapped, whilst tapping the outside of the one you just damped). You should be able to easily hear the difference. I normally like to have the batter head about a semi-tone below the bottom head, but this is really only a guide. In the end, it's whatever sounds good!
"If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first
create the universe."

-- Carl Sagan
mapexdrummer
drumming adept
drumming adept
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:59 pm
Location: El Paso TX

Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:32 pm

when i HAVE to dampen i cut paper [like lined paper for school] and i cut thin little rectangles [not too long] but just enough to get rid of overtones has a very nice low end punch for a mid range tom instead of a deep shell! or u can cut ur old coated snare head and make a homemade ring! :D
lets drum fast and sexy :]
User avatar
drummert2k
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:48 am
Location: Northumberland, PA

Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:44 pm

Theres so many posts in this thread about not dampening because they get lost in the mix and it cuts all the volume and it chokes the natural sound. thats great if your playing a show in a 5 foot by 5 foot venue with 3 people there. otherwise if your drums get losy in the mix because of dampening them you need to find a sound guy that knows what he's doing. and as much as i love the natural sound of drums, when you're in a bigger venue you usually need some kind of muffling or else your drums are gonna sound like a paper timpani once you get the speakers pumpin.

the moral of the story. dampen them if that sounds best TO YOU. get your sound. anf if they get lost in the mix either buy mic's or turn the band down. I know you "rocker" think louder is better but if everything isnt well balanced and guitars are ripping on 11 or you're beating the drums so hard you can hardly hear the singer you're only making your band look bad.
Mike T
drumming adept
drumming adept
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:08 pm
Location: Idaho

Post Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:10 am

If you wait around long enough the truth comes walking right by,they don't believe me i hope they believe the guy that Just posted he speaks the truth...Peace to you all and happy whatever you celebrate..
User avatar
zen_drummer
groove master
groove master
Posts: 1898
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: Rochester NY

Post Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:43 pm

Mike T wrote:your points 1,2 and 3 are of course your opinion and by all means you have the right to have it ..christmas wishes still apply have a good one but i know i would not enjoy listening to you on a stage with lots of overtones in your drums..but each to his own what you say is just like what i say it is only opinion....


Let's try this again...

I'm generally the kind of guy that would just agree to disagree, but I think a little clarification may be in order here. If you feel that I was bashing your ideas I truly do apologize as that isn't my intention at all. I take the time to post on this board for a variety of reasons, one of which is to answer some of the questions in a thoughtful, and factual way. I may have been heavy handed when I said that dampened drums sound like cardboard boxes. What I should have said was: Muffled drums sound like cardboard boxes "to me". That IS my opinion...

However... Let's not confuse my opinions with the facts, which are:

1) Dampened drums don't cut through the mix, they get lost in it.

This is not my opinion, this is not anybodies opinion, this is an observable fact. The only way a dampened drum won't get buried in the mix is if it's got a microphone on it and it will still sound (to me) like a loud shoe-box out in the mains instead of a drum, which is supposed to ring... see #2 below.

2) All the discussions about shell construction and materials, bearing edges and drum "tone" that take place on this site (and every other site about drums as well) point towards the fact that drums are supposed to ring... it's the ringing that get's them to project through the mix. This is a pretty well established fact and not my opinion.

For further discussions on the tone of drums, please visit nearly EVERY drum manufacturers website where they will tell you all about the processes they use to achieve maximum resonance. Virtually every drum maker on the planet takes steps to insure that their drums ring (or resonate) because drums that ring, also project. Drums that are dampened do not. Like I said, this isn't my opinion, it's fact.

My actual opinion is: Why would anybody spend the money on suspension tom mounts like DW, Pacific, Yamaha YESS, and RIMS only to dampen the drums? It makes absolutely NO sense at all to me.

3) Drums sound different in the audience than they do on the stage right next to them. (everythng does)

Once again, this is not an opinion. This is a measureable fact, based on the laws of physics and specifically the subset of physics that focuses on acoustics. There LOTS of reasons why this is scientific fact.

Mike T wrote:If you wait around long enough the truth comes walking right by,they don't believe me i hope they believe the guy that Just posted he speaks the truth...


The guy that just posted didn't speak the truth, he just happened to share the same opinion as you. Just because somebody agrees with you doesn't make you OR him right, just as NOT agreeing with me doesn't make me wrong.

I'm not bashing your ideas. I don't dislike you. I don't actually care who is right or wrong. I only care that the facts have been presented, and from there we ALL can learn and grow.
Image
woody476
beginner
beginner
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:54 am
Location: Tampa

Post Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:02 am

Moongels

I love the way they sound on my kit
God Bless
Mike T
drumming adept
drumming adept
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:08 pm
Location: Idaho

Post Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:26 pm

zen_drummer wrote:
Mike T wrote:your points 1,2 and 3 are of course your opinion and by all means you have the right to have it ..christmas wishes still apply have a good one but i know i would not enjoy listening to you on a stage with lots of overtones in your drums..but each to his own what you say is just like what i say it is only opinion....


Let's try this again...

I'm generally the kind of guy that would just agree to disagree, but I think a little clarification may be in order here. If you feel that I was bashing your ideas I truly do apologize as that isn't my intention at all. I take the time to post on this board for a variety of reasons, one of which is to answer some of the questions in a thoughtful, and factual way. I may have been heavy handed when I said that dampened drums sound like cardboard boxes. What I should have said was: Muffled drums sound like cardboard boxes "to me". That IS my opinion...

However... Let's not confuse my opinions with the facts, which are:

1) Dampened drums don't cut through the mix, they get lost in it.

This is not my opinion, this is not anybodies opinion, this is an observable fact. The only way a dampened drum won't get buried in the mix is if it's got a microphone on it and it will still sound (to me) like a loud shoe-box out in the mains instead of a drum, which is supposed to ring... see #2 below.

2) All the discussions about shell construction and materials, bearing edges and drum "tone" that take place on this site (and every other site about drums as well) point towards the fact that drums are supposed to ring... it's the ringing that get's them to project through the mix. This is a pretty well established fact and not my opinion.

For further discussions on the tone of drums, please visit nearly EVERY drum manufacturers website where they will tell you all about the processes they use to achieve maximum resonance. Virtually every drum maker on the planet takes steps to insure that their drums ring (or resonate) because drums that ring, also project. Drums that are dampened do not. Like I said, this isn't my opinion, it's fact.

My actual opinion is: Why would anybody spend the money on suspension tom mounts like DW, Pacific, Yamaha YESS, and RIMS only to dampen the drums? It makes absolutely NO sense at all to me.

3) Drums sound different in the audience than they do on the stage right next to them. (everythng does)

Once again, this is not an opinion. This is a measureable fact, based on the laws of physics and specifically the subset of physics that focuses on acoustics. There LOTS of reasons why this is scientific fact.

Mike T wrote:If you wait around long enough the truth comes walking right by,they don't believe me i hope they believe the guy that Just posted he speaks the truth...


The guy that just posted didn't speak the truth, he just happened to share the same opinion as you. Just because somebody agrees with you doesn't make you OR him right, just as NOT agreeing with me doesn't make me wrong.

I'm not bashing your ideas. I don't dislike you. I don't actually care who is right or wrong. I only care that the facts have been presented, and from there we ALL can learn and grow.


Lets just agree to disagree..and you are correct you would have been alot less brash had you said it was your opinion but hey whatever floats your boat is what you should go with..

Now there is no such Fact as Dampened drums get lost in the mix that fact excist's in your mind and maybe other people too but not mine..ROGERS Ludwig,Slingerland, Gretch all had built in Muffers on their drums back when they built quality sets <>Ever Wonder Why?<> and according to many drum collectors and artists Rogers were the mercedez Benz of drums and still are. John Bonham used not one but two felt strips in his base drum,but to argue this is pointless it is all up to the individual. you stated that dampened drums get lost in the mix, LOL well i do not have a clue where you play your drums venue wise but i have been doing it for 40 years and even 40 years ago we miced drums and amps,and still do so, dampened or not they are still miced... what i do works for me and alot of other people i know in this business but it does not make what i say or like a fact..just some info to pass along...i am glad i do not live in your fact based world..peace and keep on rocking.
User avatar
zen_drummer
groove master
groove master
Posts: 1898
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: Rochester NY

Post Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:38 pm

ROGERS Ludwig,Slingerland, Gretch all had built in Muffers on their drums back when they built quality sets <>Ever Wonder Why?


Lots of people wonder why... this is why so many vintage drum kits are found with the mufflers removed and why they can be very expensive to replace to bring the kit back to original... LOTS of people removed them because they rattled when they were not in contact with the drum head (meaning unmuffled) and most people preferred to not use them, thus the removal and eventual toss into the dumpster!

and according to many drum collectors and artists Rogers were the mercedez Benz of drums and still are.


Rogers drums sound AMAZING! One of the best sounding kits I ever played was a Rogers kit. Of course it sounded best (to me) with the mufflers off, except when the mufflers were not being used they rattled...

OK, let's just disagree, but before we do...

Check out this video with Nate Morton, the high bucks, mega-grooving session drummer from the Rockstar Series (and lots of other great credits) ... listen to his drums in this video, a pretty good example of what I'm taking about. His drums RING! (his left side 18" floor tom seems to sustain for days!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSlK3BEaSmc

Next, listen to them in the following mix... The same drums on the same riser with the same mics, but in the mix they are well defined... The difference is amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyyvMuaKTLk

The ringing which you possibly find objectionable from the first video is nowhere to be heard, because in the mix it has no sonic impact other than support the depth of the tone.

But yeah, we can disagree. I think his drum sound is amazing in the mix!
Image
Mike T
drumming adept
drumming adept
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:08 pm
Location: Idaho

Post Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:06 pm

Thanks for the links.i listened to both and not to continue this discussion the first link his drums by themselves absolutly sounded like garbage and that is being kind if i could not make my snare sound batter than that i would run over it with a truck...i am not a fan of all the gimmicks he uses but setting that aside to me in my opinon his drums sounded like crap.

The second link his drums just sounded like a muddled mess along with the rest of that band (could be the recording) but it is muddled and no his drums are not sounding individual.
this is of course just my opinion and you asked me for it..

As far as the Mufflers on drums lol i never ever had one that made noise or came apart and i still play rogers drums..but as i have stated before i use a ludgig Supraphonic snare again with a baseball type muffler...go to drummers world listen to ginger baker (his Ludwig set owned compared to the DW drums he now plays but hey they are free) and listen to John Bohnam and Carmine Appice for the sound i prefere..happy new year..
User avatar
Shalaq
session drummer
session drummer
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:24 am
Location: Poland

Post Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:31 am

As far as muffling, Bohnam used only 2 felt strips on the kick and I can understand that- it was a pretty big kick drum. But toms&snare? No muffling. It was all in the sizes, heads and tuning.
Mapex, Istanbul Agop, Attack, Vater/O4D.
I want an endorsement :)
Quick link to the search engine:
http://www.drumsmylife.com/search.php
User avatar
anavrinIV
groove master
groove master
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:26 am
Location: concord, nc

Post Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:18 pm

to the guy that said swingstars need muffling, youre dead wrong. i have swingstars with coated g2s/clear g1s and they resonate beautifully with no overtones at all. the only muffling i use is one moongel on my snare because i have it very tight and it does have overtones without the moongel. i use an emad on the bass and tune it like id tune a tom because i despise loose, slappy bass sounds.
zen_drummer wrote:Real life doesn't work that way, and one day he's gonna pull a stunt like that and they'll put a cap in him. At that point it won't matter that he was fat in high-school and couldn't get laid.
User avatar
zen_drummer
groove master
groove master
Posts: 1898
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: Rochester NY

Post Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:43 pm

Mike T wrote:As far as the Mufflers on drums lol i never ever had one that made noise or came apart


Seriously? At some point in the mid 80's drummers started tearing the things out of their drums so they didn't rattle in the studio. On some drums they made an awful racket! By the end of the 80's manufacturers stopped putting them in drums because most drummers didn't want them at all!

You mentioned the baseball bat muffler on Ludwig drums... Those were designed a bit differently and rarely made a peep, but man, the mufflers on Rogers and Gretsch have long springs on them that made a lot of noise if they were loosened to the point where they were not muffling the head! It might not be noticed by your ear, but put a mic on the drum and you'll hear it plain as day.

Anyway, Rogers drums are really great sounding... I cannot imagine why you would want to muffle such a wonderful sounding set of drums!

Mike T wrote:i listened to both and not to continue this discussion the first link his drums by themselves absolutly sounded like garbage and that is being kind if i could not make my snare sound batter than that i would run over it with a truck...i am not a fan of all the gimmicks he uses but setting that aside to me in my opinon his drums sounded like crap.


That's why I posted the links... to point out that drums sound different on stage than out front. If you tune and dampen your drums to sound the way you want them to sound out front, then they'll sound MORE muffled out front than you want them to, because the PA system itself "compresses" the sound quite a bit. You think that great sounding drums that ring and project well sound like crap. Further, the overwhelming response of the thread has been to say that they let their drums ring, MAYBE a lil moongel to control overtones is used. (which of course can also be handled by spending more time tuning, also the comments of the thread)

Had you considered trying a gig or two with your drums "wide open" to see if maybe all these people that are posting might have something to offer? Believe me when I tell you, if I saw post after post telling me that I might be able to benefit from taking the advice of others, I would certainly give it a try rather than to simply "lol" my way around it and retort by saying "aw, that's just an opinion". Growth comes from trying things that others have suggested. I would absolutely give it a try and see if I get positive comments from my "new sound". What do you have to lose?

You say you've been drumming for 41 years, as have I. In that 40+ years of being a musician I've learned a LOT of new things and MANY of them were counter-intuitive. I remember saying that I would NEVER use heads made of anything but calf-skin. Over time, I changed my mind. I currently have no kits with calf on them. Then I was stuck on Remo heads, I wouldn't try anything else. Now I play Evans exclusively. Times change. The days of dampened drums went away in the 70's. Why hold onto mediocrity with both hands?

So... seriously... give this a try! Take the muffling off... put on fresh heads if you haven't in a while and tune your drums to play them wide open and see if anybody objects! I'll bet you get people commenting on your improved tone. Read all the posts in this thread that suggest that I may actually be suggesting something that will be of benefit to you! Let those incredible Rogers drums be all that they can be!
Image
Dale
session drummer
session drummer
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:21 am
Location: Aus

Post Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:50 am

I fully agree with Zen Drummer. In fact I have a tendency to think that drummers who muffle everything lack experience. Sometimes it is necessary to use a little muffling, depending on the room and skills of the engineer. But in this time of good mics and equipment, muffling seems decidedly archaic.

I prefer to leave it back in the 70's where it belongs.
I don't know what I'm talking about!

"Don't play FOR people. Play WITH people."
- Papa Jo Jones