Thomas Lang VS. Dennis Chambers......

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zen_drummer
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Post Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:17 am

Flatliner wrote:I know where you are coming from, but I don't like the implication that groove and technique can't co-exist.


I guess it may look like I have implied that Groove and Technique cannot co-exist... Yet I don't feel that way at all... they are actually far from being mutually exclusive.

A great example of the two living in the same space can be found by heading over to youtube and doing a search on buddy rich, or barrett deems, or even louis bellson...

To be concise, I don't consider drum videos as being "music" and perhaps that's a shortcoming of mine, but until I see all the technique put to use in actual music, I guess I just don't understand the point of having monster chops if you're not going to make music with them!

As an example, Bozzio has monster chops, and I've seen him make music with all that technique, and it feels great! I've heard other chop-masters that can't groove on a bet... so I guess I'm saying they CAN co-exist, that's why it's such a shame when they don't.

For the purpose of this discussion we were asked to compare Thomas Lang, an absolute technician at his craft against a guy with GREAT chops, immaculate pocket and relentless groove, that has made an outstanding contribution to the world of music. One way of saying it is "technique is cheap"... the other way is "speed ain't nothin' without class"

I'm an old-timer, I think there's more to music than the application of well-rehearsed patterns. "Feel" means a lot.
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zen_drummer
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Post Mon Dec 11, 2006 12:22 am

drummert2k wrote: i checked out your site. your zendrum is crazy? is that something you created or is that a standard piece of electronic percussion you can order from a store?


I didn't create the Zendrum... A description of how I came to have it can be found here: http://www.unitedgrooveworkers.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2&Itemid=3

I believe at this point in time the only way to get one is to order it direct from zendrum at www.zendrum.com. It's a really cool instrument!
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RobDrmz
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Post Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:12 am

Thomas Lang? Oh c'mon! - The guy rules, -BUT-

and a big BUTT, Dennnis's feel is UNTEACHABLE, groove comes from the heart & soul.

People without it, love chops. BTW, Dennis is very technical drummer, he just plays the song.

And, to set the record straight! - Tommy Lang RULES TOO. Let's get a cheeseburger and slam some drums!
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zen_drummer
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Post Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:20 am

RobDrmz wrote:Thomas Lang? Oh c'mon! - The guy rules, -BUT-

and a big BUTT, Dennnis's feel is UNTEACHABLE, groove comes from the heart & soul.

People without it, love chops. BTW, Dennis is very technical drummer, he just plays the song.

And, to set the record straight! - Tommy Lang RULES TOO. Let's get a cheeseburger and slam some drums!


Dennis is a VERY technical drummer, he just doesn't let it get in the way of the music. I love his playing... Check out the album he did with Greg Howe, technique and groove in one place... imagine that! Greg's a guitar player that is also able to make the two coexist.

If you're ever in Rochester, look me up, I'll buy the cheeseburgers!
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mikeellis
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Post Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:29 am

zen_drummer wrote:Wow...
I can't think of any tunes on which Lang lays down a memorable groove.


Chances are every time you turn on the radio for a reasonable length of time, you'll hear Thomas playing sooner or later and most likely; 'a groove'. Whether or not it's memorable, is up to you.
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m
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Post Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:11 am

mikeellis wrote:
zen_drummer wrote:Wow...
I can't think of any tunes on which Lang lays down a memorable groove.


Chances are every time you turn on the radio for a reasonable length of time, you'll hear Thomas playing sooner or later and most likely; 'a groove'. Whether or not it's memorable, is up to you.


and there are a couple songs on his new DVD that feature a solid groove rather than all-out athletics. I thought "Stock" would pretty much put to rest any misguided notions that he doesn't groove as well as he shreds. Very solid track there...
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zen_drummer
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Post Mon Dec 18, 2006 10:25 pm

m wrote:there are a couple songs on his new DVD that feature a solid groove rather than all-out athletics. I thought "Stock" would pretty much put to rest any misguided notions that he doesn't groove as well as he shreds. Very solid track there...


I checked the video out today... first things first.... he's a freakin' talented drummer... but he still feels too mechanical for my taste. To each his own, I guess. I agree his technique is undeniable. I think saying he's grooving is a real stretch.
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Flatliner
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Post Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:49 pm

zen_drummer wrote:
Flatliner wrote:I know where you are coming from, but I don't like the implication that groove and technique can't co-exist.


I guess it may look like I have implied that Groove and Technique cannot co-exist... Yet I don't feel that way at all... they are actually far from being mutually exclusive.

A great example of the two living in the same space can be found by heading over to youtube and doing a search on buddy rich, or barrett deems, or even louis bellson...

To be concise, I don't consider drum videos as being "music" and perhaps that's a shortcoming of mine, but until I see all the technique put to use in actual music, I guess I just don't understand the point of having monster chops if you're not going to make music with them!

As an example, Bozzio has monster chops, and I've seen him make music with all that technique, and it feels great! I've heard other chop-masters that can't groove on a bet... so I guess I'm saying they CAN co-exist, that's why it's such a shame when they don't.

For the purpose of this discussion we were asked to compare Thomas Lang, an absolute technician at his craft against a guy with GREAT chops, immaculate pocket and relentless groove, that has made an outstanding contribution to the world of music. One way of saying it is "technique is cheap"... the other way is "speed ain't nothin' without class"

I'm an old-timer, I think there's more to music than the application of well-rehearsed patterns. "Feel" means a lot.



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Multibomber
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Post Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:41 am

This is pretty simple. Chambers has been around longer and has recorded more cds. Lang is young and can play A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G. People here tend not to like Lang because he plays mostly electronic music. It's not that he cant groove, its that very few people on God's green earth can play the electronic stuff that Lang can, so those are most of his gigs. The music Lang plays on his dvds is meant to accentuate what he is teaching, which is technique.

Simply put, Lang could play anything Chambers could, but Chambers couldn't play anything Lang could. But any Thomas Lang argument wont be settled in the minds of old people until he comes out with a fusion cd, and a jazz cd, and a funk cd.
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zen_drummer
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Post Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:10 pm

Multibomber wrote:But any Thomas Lang argument wont be settled in the minds of old people until he comes out with a fusion cd, and a jazz cd, and a funk cd.


OLD PEOPLE?

Wow... I guess I am!

And as far as being convinced by Lang coming out with a fusion cd, and a jazz cd, and a funk cd.... I'd settle for a musical one in ANY Genre!

SPICE GIRLS? The drums sound like a drum machine to me... Perfect execution, no groove.
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Dale
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Post Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:13 pm

zen_drummer wrote:Two quotes from my website...

"There are really two ways to perform on the drums...


I prefer to think that the artform is limitless.

But to each his own.

As for technique versus chops? I think it is a non argument. There is no rule of life that says one must exist independantly of the other.

What is true is that there have been some drummers who perhaps focused on one more than the other. An example for me would be Carl Palmer. He seems to have better chops than feel or groove.

But then we look at Dennis and he has both.

As for Lang versus Dennis? I think it's a bit unfair. Dennis has a lot of sessions to his credit. George Clinton called him "The funkiest man alive". That's pretty hard to beat. Add to this the guys Dennis has played with; people such as George Benson, P Funk and a whole host of others.

Lang on the other hand is quite new on the scene and his career seems basically based in the drum world only. There's nothing wrong with that. Many drummers are learning as a result. It's probably not what interests Dennis. Although he's released his own very fine educational work. But it's working for Lang.

The fact of the matter is each person has to make his or her own way in this business. One goes one way, another goes a different way and it all depends on talent mixed with luck and chance.

In the greater scheme of things, there is no doubt in my mind that Dennis is a monster in the world of music at large. After all, people like Santana call him. Lang hasn't reached this level as yet. He might. Good luck to them both.
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zen_drummer
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Post Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:44 pm

In the greater scheme of things, there is no doubt in my mind that Dennis is a monster in the world of music at large. After all, people like Santana call him. Lang hasn't reached this level as yet. He might. Good luck to them both.


And that being said, I agree with you, they are different, one has WAY more real world experience than the other and only time will tell if Lang has the staying power of Chambers.

One thing is for certain, There is room in the industry for both of them, even if Chambers can Groove circles around Lang ....(Sorry, I just had to do it!)
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Dale
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Post Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:25 am

zen_drummer wrote:
One thing is for certain, There is room in the industry for both of them, even if Chambers can Groove circles around Lang ....(Sorry, I just had to do it!)


I agree. Mate you've been around long enough to know that many drummers can get caught up in the mechanics of drumming and never escape it. It's kind of like a driver being more concerned with spark plugs than driving.

As for Lang, I haven't heard enough of his work to know or not how well he can groove. His subject matter in his instructional work has been based in advanced co-ordination. That being the case I really don't expect him to be grooving as such on his DVDs. With this in mind I am loathe to criticise him. What he has shown he can do is outstanding. He may well release a groove based DVD one day.

As I said earlier, this question is unfair. Chambers has been around for years. His position is secure. I don't think what Lang does is in direct competition with Dennis Chambers. It's not like they are competing for the same gigs.
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mikeellis
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Post Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:19 pm

Trust me, Thomas CAN groove.
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Post Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:51 am

What? Making fun of Thomas Lang?

Dagh, I used to like Mr. Chambers... when someone starts doing shit like this because one thinks is better than someone else, is because the one saying it feels threatened and insecure. So unprofessional of Chambers.

Long life to Thomas Lang