butt kicker anyone??

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SGarrett
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Post Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:10 am

Empyrean Drums wrote:The 8-16 ohm is the minimum impedance (resistance varies with frequency) the amp is designed to run at, if you bridge two channels with a 4 ohm speaker it will run at 2 ohms.
Check this link, it exmplains it pretty well:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-M2GIhOQYqCV/tech/kb334.html


He's not wiring two together, so the impedance of the shaker wouldn't change, only the impedance that the amp is driving because it'll be sending exactly half. At least, that's how I was taught to do it by professional installers.


bermuda wrote:I'm not sure what that is, but it's not a Buttkicker. There have been several such drivers offered over the years, and only the Buttkicker is powerful enough to take on stage.

As for mounting, anything that attaches to the hardware or farther from the seat is not going to give the same thump as mounting directly to the seat. Here's mine before I mounted a 2nd one, and they fit very nicely:

Image

The need (and idea) for a thumper goes back to the '70s, and required a cannister throne. Here's the one I used until 2004:

Image

Apart from not liking a round seat, it was temperamental and seldom powerful enough for me. I was constanly trying to feed it more power, but only resulted in frying several speakers. While it was a better alternative to the volume of monitors, I wasn't happy and none of the 'shakers' on the market even came close to it. My search brought me to Buttkicker 5 years ago, and every time I play it's a treat.

Our crew invites anyone who's not familiar to sit on the seat and play the kick. Jaws drop. I should mention that the gals particularly enjoy it!

Bermuda


You use two? Holy crap! Hahaha.

I'd love to hit your kick pedal some time. I bet the ladies love it, too. :lol:

And what an odd contraption. I don't think I've ever seen a throne like that, that I paid attention to. It looks like a bass cannon with a seat.
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Empyrean Drums
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Post Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:37 am

SGarrett wrote:
Empyrean Drums wrote:The 8-16 ohm is the minimum impedance (resistance varies with frequency) the amp is designed to run at, if you bridge two channels with a 4 ohm speaker it will run at 2 ohms.
Check this link, it exmplains it pretty well:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-M2GIhOQYqCV/tech/kb334.html


He's not wiring two together, so the impedance of the shaker wouldn't change, only the impedance that the amp is driving because it'll be sending exactly half. At least, that's how I was taught to do it by professional installers.


Impedance is the average load the amp sees, because with alternating current depending on frequency the current draw changes.
Home/studio amplifiers are designed to run at lower current because you have 110V to power them, versus high current 1ohm stable car audio amplifiers which only have 12V to make wattage. Amps will still operate at higher loads, but they run hot and can blow fuses/go into protection/burn up if you drive them hard.
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Post Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:34 am

Impedance is the average load the amp sees, because with alternating current depending on frequency the current draw changes.
Home/studio amplifiers are designed to run at lower current because you have 110V to power them, versus high current 1ohm stable car audio amplifiers which only have 12V to make wattage. Amps will still operate at higher loads, but they run hot and can blow fuses/go into protection/burn up if you drive them hard.[/quote]

So I've heard. That was also the reason I haven't tried it with the amp, because someone told me it could indeed damage the amp if it runs on half power...

I don't know if the thing I have is a buttkicker or not, but it's the same thing actually. It does work, I've connected it ones and it did vibrate, but the power it got wasn't strong enough so it didn't kick so much. But that was just a test whether to see if it was working...

If I can't like reroute the amp to a lower level, I guess I'll just have to get a 4 ohm amp specially for the kicker right?
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Post Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:43 am

Damagedrummer wrote:So I've heard. That was also the reason I haven't tried it with the amp, because someone told me it could indeed damage the amp if it runs on half power....

I don't know if the thing I have is a buttkicker or not, but it's the same thing actually. It does work, I've connected it ones and it did vibrate, but the power it got wasn't strong enough so it didn't kick so much. But that was just a test whether to see if it was working...

If I can't like reroute the amp to a lower level, I guess I'll just have to get a 4 ohm amp specially for the kicker right?


Or get two of them and run them in series. You can also get a cheap car audio amp and use an inverter to power it.
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SGarrett
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Post Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:58 pm

That 50w seat shaker is going to burn up long before a quality amp will.
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Post Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:11 pm

SGarrett wrote:That 50w seat shaker is going to burn up long before a quality amp will.


Here are the specs on the Buttkicker Concert model (the one I use) -
Frequency Response: 5 - 200 Hz
Nominal Impedance: 2 ohms
Power Handling: 400 watts min. / 1500 watts max.

There's little chance of blowing these, although I have overheated one a few times (no problems since I hooked two together.)

These Buttkickers are used in IMAX theaters and aren't speaker drivers or 'shakers', they're solenoids with a piston inside housed in liquid. They're serious business for pros. Nothing else even comes close.

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Post Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:26 pm

bermuda wrote:There's little chance of blowing these, although I have overheated one a few times (no problems since I hooked two together.)
These Buttkickers are used in IMAX theaters and aren't speaker drivers or 'shakers', they're solenoids with a piston inside housed in liquid. They're serious business for pros. Nothing else even comes close.
Bermuda


That's kinda cool, the bass shakers are just a motor and an eccentric

You can get away with running a bigger amplifier or speakers with less impedance if you turn down the gain, as long as you’re not running a direct short or 10x the rated power

What really causes speakers to fail isn't over-powering them; it's usually because you're bumpin' square waves (clipping because of too much input voltage). You know how when you turn your stereo up all the way it gets to a point that it sounds like garbled crap? It's not too much wattage over-driving the speaker, but rather signal distortion.
With (car audio) amplifiers the usual cause of failure is because of having a voltage drop in the power supply because of bad/insufficient power/ground/speaker leads or a weak battery. This causes the amp to draw more current and run hot
I had to deal with so many customers that would blow their subs and come in flippin’ out how “my shit’s rated at 1000w and I’m only runnin’ half that, you fucked my shit up puttin’ it in”
Then I check, they cranked the gain setting on the amp. Or others that didn't get why their fuses kept blowing-pop the hood and the battery looks like a coral reef
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Post Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:56 pm

so where do triggers stand in all of this?

(probably a noob question)
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Post Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:21 pm

myownenemy wrote:so where do triggers stand in all of this?



The triggers tell the processor to talk which then sends signal to the amp

Don't feel like a noob for asking a technical question, that's how you learn
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Post Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:50 am

bermuda wrote:
SGarrett wrote:That 50w seat shaker is going to burn up long before a quality amp will.


Here are the specs on the Buttkicker Concert model (the one I use) -
Frequency Response: 5 - 200 Hz
Nominal Impedance: 2 ohms
Power Handling: 400 watts min. / 1500 watts max.

There's little chance of blowing these, although I have overheated one a few times (no problems since I hooked two together.)

These Buttkickers are used in IMAX theaters and aren't speaker drivers or 'shakers', they're solenoids with a piston inside housed in liquid. They're serious business for pros. Nothing else even comes close.

Bermuda


I've been looking at the buttkicker's for the past month or so. I have a lot of bass work so i think i may overheat it during most sets. When you overheated yours, did you just unplug it at that red wire-chord and insert the chord from the backup buttkicker between songs?

What do the chords from the buttkicker plug into, so that it recognises the bass drum hit? Would it plug into a stage signal from the bass drum input of a mix?
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Post Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:08 pm

yomega wrote:I've been looking at the buttkicker's for the past month or so. I have a lot of bass work so i think i may overheat it during most sets. When you overheated yours, did you just unplug it at that red wire-chord and insert the chord from the backup buttkicker between songs?


There's little chance of blowing them, as there's a thermal fuse that shuts it down if it gets overheated (it comes back after about 15 minutes.) I now run two in parallel and that takes the load off a bit, and I've had no problems whatsoever. In fact, I can't turn it up all the way anyway, it's pretty serious even at moderate levels. I can't imagine anyone running more kick than I do, and various local crews have commented that I get the most kick of any drummer they've worked with.

What do the chords from the buttkicker plug into, so that it recognises the bass drum hit? Would it plug into a stage signal from the bass drum input of a mix?


I have the signal from my kick gated to the Buttkicker (so the bass doesn't creep in and take away my kick's definition) through a crossover to really focus the thump (I think my frequency is about 51hz) and then a Crown K2 amp. Basically, it's just an audio feed from the kick channel.

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Post Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:25 pm

yeh i know that it shuts off when it's overheated, it had mentioned that on their website. However, i play in a band where there is double kick 16th notes for minutes at a time.

So, how do you focus the thump? That sounds like something that i would want to do..

Oh and another question, what is a 'crossover'? and what is the relevance to a Crown K2 amp?

I've always been an acoustic person and never worked with modules and triggers or IEM's or any of that, so these terms fly over my head. Haha.

Basically if you could point down an idiots guide to using 2 buttkickers at the same time and getting a defined, focused thump....then i would be very very appreciative. 8)

Cheers.

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Post Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:55 pm

Historically, the crossover selects a frequency 'crossover' point between speakers; woofer, midrange, tweeter, etc. For the purposes of the Buttkicker, it helps focus the signal to respond up to a certain frequency. I like the thump of 51hz, but someone else might like something higher or lower.

The Crown K2 is a slightly older but reliable amp, regarded as pretty powerful. It goes very nicely with the Buttkicker.

Also, the kick signal to the Buttkicker is gated, so that other loud sounds or low end from the bass don't trigger it and vibrate the seat. It's very distracting and masks the thump somewhat. Once everything is dialed-in, you get an articulate, powerful kick up your butt. 16ths should be no problem.

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Post Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:01 am

thanks Bermuda for your reply.

Probably a dumb question to tech wizards...but why would i need an amp for the buttkicker if I'm playing live? Does the bass drum mic chord (signal) run to the "buttkicker power amplifier" then into the buttkicker itself? and is the Crown K2 your alternative to the power amp because you have 2 buttkickers and the power amp only has 1 channel????

..and a 'crossover'. Is that the name of an external object that you use to change frequencies on the buttkicker? Or is there a 'crossover' feature on the buttkicker that determines what frequency you wish to play at.? If it is an external gadget, then how does it all link up, and what sort is yours?

...AND... how do i get 2 buttkicker's working alongside each other? Do you have it so one can take over if the other heats up, or do you have them both alternating together (taking turns to respond to the bass drum hits)?


ALOT of questions, but I'm very very curious about this topic and keen to get it all up and running.
If you can shed some light, i'll be very greatful.


One final assumption...if you can get an individual signal for the bass drum, then that would mean I would be able to get only the bass drum into a set of IEM's right? If i wished.

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Post Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:06 am

yomega wrote:Probably a dumb question to tech wizards...but why would i need an amp for the buttkicker if I'm playing live? Does the bass drum mic chord (signal) run to the "buttkicker power amplifier" then into the buttkicker itself?


The signal is a send/bus from the monitor board's kick channel, and the amp makes the signal activate 6the Buttkicker.

..and a 'crossover'. Is that the name of an external object that you use to change frequencies on the buttkicker?


It sets the frequency range somewhat and focuses the signal, but it's not an eq. I use an Ashly XR1001 (it's a few years old...)

...AND... how do i get 2 buttkicker's working alongside each other?


As I've mentioned, they run together in parallel.

One final assumption...if you can get an individual signal for the bass drum, then that would mean I would be able to get only the bass drum into a set of IEM's right? If i wished.


You should be able to have whatever you want in your monitors, but with the Buttkicker you won't need much kick in your ears, maybe just some of the batter click for definition. You'll have more kick than you can use.

Bermuda