Damping the toms?

Pearl, Tama, Yamaha, DW, Ludwig, Premier, Mapex etc.

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Mike T
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Post Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:07 pm

Well I surley thank everyone for their thoughts but you stand about as much chance converting me as a snowball in hell....Zen you made no comment on the second link the drummer with the band through the PA sounded like crap with no tone definition,and nowhere close to any punch.

As far as taking advice from these boards i did not come here for advice i just answered a post and viola here we are. How many of the posters on this forum were even alive in 1970? i have been in countless studios and talked to countless drummers and funny they almost all have a pillow of some sort in their base drums,or they dampen in some way to record and their onstage set is dampened in some way not all mind you but many,i am part of the many.. i do not follow trends and gimmicks,i do not like metal drums (i see you have a set of trick)(i have never played them i have no opinion but they are way high in price) i do like my ludaloy snare,i like wood i like deep sounding drums, that do not ring for a hour mine ring but ever so slightly..i do not like a double bass drum pedal for the same reasons when the first beater strikes the second cuts off the sound of the first if you want to play 2 bass drums do it don't use a gimmick that is me ..i am asking no one to be like me or like what i like,that is why we are all different..

I am old school don't like the new school, i do not for the most part like the new music i really hate with a passion drum machines. I am from a blues and jam based backround. I am for the most part a stay in the pocket player with a big sound,i have my moments but they are not as important as they were 35 years ago...so you see i like my life ,my drums, my kind of music it makes me happy and if yours does the same for you don't mess with it....

It is like trying to change you wife after being married for 32 years (i have been) good luck .. :)

Oh and in closing i am not to keen on the new drum manufactures either i think for the most part they are cheap,sound like crap and are sold just to make a profit...if you want to invest in good drums buy a vintage kit and restore it ..the woods are better,i am speaking about shells only todays hardware is far superior..everyone have a happy and safe new year..i have to go to work..peace

PS. as far as noisy mufflers you take the stock nut off and install a nylock nut (has nylon where the threads are) and they never move from where you position them either on or off, and they never rattle drum manufactures today are just cheaper they lack alot of small touches..
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zen_drummer
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Post Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:15 pm

Mike T wrote:You made no comment on the second link the drummer with the band through the PA sounded like crap with no tone definition,and nowhere close to any punch...


Yeah, it didn't deserve a comment back, Nates drums sound incredible...

Mike T wrote:As far as taking advice from these boards i did not come here for advice...



You've made that point abundantly clear... I just don't understand why. I'm open to new ideas, I guess that perhaps most musicians with an interest in growth would be as well. I really don't think anybody on earth is in the position to say they know everything and cannot benefit from the input of others.

Mike T wrote:How many of the posters on this forum were even alive in 1970?

I know I was, in fact, in 1970 I was studying with the same teacher as Steve Gadd was studying with just 2 years before. I'm pretty sure Dale is in this age bracket as well. I think there are a fair amount of "old timers" on here. Some of us stayed with the times!

Mike T wrote:i have been in countless studios and talked to countless drummers and funny they almost all have a pillow of some sort in their base drums,or they dampen in some way to record and their onstage set is dampened in some way not all mind you but many.

I have a pretty extensive Discography over the uears, and I've played a lot of commercial jingle sessions as well. While it's true "some" players have a pillow in their bass drum, I wouldn't say MOST do, but I'll agree, many do. The better, more experienced players I know eventually came around to the thinking that dampened drums don't sound as good as wide open drums.

Mike T wrote:i am part of the many.. i do not follow trends and gimmicks,


Sure you do! You're stuck on a really old and surely outdated gimmick... the gimmick that drums need to be muffled to sound good. I n fact you're so stuck on it you don't even like the sound of drums in their "natural" state!

Mike T wrote:i do not like metal drums (i see you have a set of trick)(i have never played them i have no opinion but they are way high in price)


Saying they are way high in price without ever playing them is certainly an opinion, and you shouldn't really say it if you haven't experienced it first hand. Your opinion is based on what? I feel, given the versatility of the product, that they are an absolute bargain!

Mike T wrote:i do like my ludaloy snare,..

Aluminum alloy? I thought you didn't like metal drums?


Mike T wrote:i like wood i like deep sounding drums, that do not ring for a hour mine ring but ever so slightly..,..


I get it, you like dampened drums...

Mike T wrote:i do not like a double bass drum pedal for the same reasons when the first beater strikes the second cuts off the sound of the first if you want to play 2 bass drums do it don't use a gimmick that is me ..


So you don't like it when the pedal dampens the head? I don't get it... I thought you liked dampening? Have you ever used a double kick pedal or did you get that opinion by reading an article someplace?

Mike T wrote:i am asking no one to be like me or like what i like


I think you're safe there...

Mike T wrote:It is like trying to change you wife after being married for 32 years (i have been) good luck .. :)


I do congratulate you on that milestone! In this day and age, marriages don't usually stand the test of time. I Also know that you didn't make your marriage last by being rigid and unyielding... You accepted change as it occurred, it's the only way that was even possible!

Mike T wrote: Oh and in closing i am not to keen on the new drum manufactures either i think for the most part they are cheap,sound like crap and are sold just to make a profit...if you want to invest in good drums buy a vintage kit and restore it ..the woods are better,i am speaking about shells only todays hardware is far superior..


There are a number of really fine manufacturers out there in the marketplace, and many of them truly care about the quality of their products! I think that the upper end kits on the market today far exceed the quality of the vintage drums, with very few exceptions. There is no doubt that your rogers kit is one of those few exceptions. They were truly a company ahead of their time! (and went out of business because they couldn't compete with the price points of the junk on the market they were competing against!)

Mike T wrote:PS. as far as noisy mufflers you take the stock nut off and install a nylock nut (has nylon where the threads are) and they never move from where you position them either on or off, and they never rattle


We went from you never heard of a problem with mufflers to having a solution for the problem? Well, I know of that solution and it doesn't stop the springs from rattling.

Mike T wrote: drum manufactures today are just cheaper they lack alot of small touches..


The better drum manufacturers are not cheap today. Not eve close! Compare the spurs on most bass drums to the ones that were around just 20 years ago. What a HUGE difference. And what about the roundness of the drums? I've owned vintage kits that were out of round because the wood selection they used was just awful! Slingerland actually produced some kits with shells that were made of masonite!

I think todays manufaturers had really listened to the drummers of the past and present and they produce drum kits that in many ways are far superior to the kits of the past, especially in the lower price ranges! These are JUST my opinions, but I think many of the folks reading this will agree, especially the "old timers"... Dale, lets compare a set of Whitehalls against a set of Pacifics... Let's compare "Kent" drums to Pearl Exports... I mean... the difference is LAUGHABLE! Todays lower priced drums FAR EXCEED the quality of most vintage kits!

So it's clear you won't change, and don't want to. It's also clear that you don't actually like the sound of drums in their modern incarnations, and fair enough, that's your right.

But remember that predisposition when you give advice on this board. Perhaps you should start your posts by saying "I don't actually like the sound of modern drums, but here's my advice anyway..." I'm not saying people should dismiss your input or opinions... I'm just suggesting that you make sure they understand that you are coming from a very narrow scope with an even narrower point of view.
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Mike T
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Post Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:51 pm

Yeah, it didn't deserve a comment back, Nates drums sound incredible...

<> Again your opinion and you have made it quite clear your opinion is fact in your mind!<>

You've made that point abundantly clear... I just don't understand why. I'm open to new ideas, I guess that perhaps most musicians with an interest in growth would be as well. I really don't think anybody on earth is in the position to say they know everything and cannot benefit from the input of others.

<> Again your opinion i never said i do not benifit from others you said that,i just do not follow trends you obviously do and you probably have all your life i am sorry that you never found anything that made you happy keep trying. And again you stated something not true i never said i knew everything i answered the thread starters question he asked what i thought ,it is only what i thought that i posted you are the only one here that seems to say that what you think is fact! <>

I know I was, in fact, in 1970 I was studying with the same teacher as Steve Gadd was studying with just 2 years before. I'm pretty sure Dale is in this age bracket as well. I think there are a fair amount of "old timers" on here. Some of us stayed with the times!

<> at least their is a few of us left,in that we can agree.<>

I have a pretty extensive Discography over the uears, and I've played a lot of commercial jingle sessions as well. While it's true "some" players have a pillow in their bass drum, I wouldn't say MOST do, but I'll agree, many do. The better, more experienced players I know eventually came around to the thinking that dampened drums don't sound as good as wide open drums.

<> well again we agree that many do, but i will not stoop to your level and call them less talented inexperienced when in fact alot of them have million dollar selling recordings it must work for them.<>

Sure you do! You're stuck on a really old and surely outdated gimmick... the gimmick that drums need to be muffled to sound good. I n fact you're so stuck on it you don't even like the sound of drums in their "natural" state!

<> NO, you are wrong again, i said they did not sound good to me undampened for the sound i am after,you said I said they have to be dampened to sound good,try reading the posts and then taking what they say in context... <>

Saying they are way high in price without ever playing them is certainly an opinion, and you shouldn't really say it if you haven't experienced it first hand. Your opinion is based on what? I feel, given the versatility of the product, that they are an absolute bargain!

<> So let me get this right big guy,you are telling me i can not look at the price and say in my opinion they are way high priced? You are even more arogant than i thought,lol i went to their website i saw the price for what they were offering,in my opinion their stuff is overpriced NO drum pedal is worth over 600.00 like or lump it it is my opinion. it is still made out of aluminum.<>

Aluminum alloy? I thought you didn't like metal drums?

<> I stated it as a exception with this snare i am impressed owned since 1966 I will restate it now for your clarity i do not like all metal drums only one my Ludaloy snare<> Happy?

I get it, you like dampened drums...

<> you got one right big guy 2 points.<>

So you don't like it when the pedal dampens the head? I don't get it... I thought you liked dampening? Have you ever used a double kick pedal or did you get that opinion by reading an article someplace?

<> Well if i must draw you a picture i do not like the two base drums sounding exactly the same,when i play two which i do alot i tune the left one a 1/2 pitch down from the right one,in doing so i have two distinct sounds.<>

I think you're safe there...

<> Good<>

I do congratulate you on that milestone! In this day and age, marriages don't usually stand the test of time. I Also know that you didn't make your marriage last by being rigid and unyielding... You accepted change as it occurred, it's the only way that was even possible!

<> thank you she is a great woman but if you ask her what she see's today is pretty much what she got 32 years ago,there are a few changes but not many when i find something that works i stick with it.<>

There are a number of really fine manufacturers out there in the marketplace, and many of them truly care about the quality of their products! I think that the upper end kits on the market today far exceed the quality of the vintage drums, with very few exceptions. There is no doubt that your rogers kit is one of those few exceptions. They were truly a company ahead of their time! (and went out of business because they couldn't compete with the price points of the junk on the market they were competing against!)

<> it is a different market today than it was 35 years ago i can see that todays drum makers seem to intent on gimmicks flame paintjobs floresent colors In my opinion look like cheap toys,notice the MY opinion <<<<----- Rogers drums were ahead of their time and it is too bad they could not survive the onslaught of cheaper products,i like Pearl and Yamaha, i do not like DW and i have played quite a few to finickyand over priced.<>

We went from you never heard of a problem with mufflers to having a solution for the problem? Well, I know of that solution and it doesn't stop the springs from rattling.

<> there you go again with your matter of fact attitude dude come on check the attitude you are not the drum God no matter what you think,If one was to have a problem with the metal stantion rattling against the cam the nylock will fix it for me .<>

The better drum manufacturers are not cheap today. Not eve close! Compare the spurs on most bass drums to the ones that were around just 20 years ago. What a HUGE difference. And what about the roundness of the drums? I've owned vintage kits that were out of round because the wood selection they used was just awful! Slingerland actually produced some kits with shells that were made of masonite!

I think todays manufaturers had really listened to the drummers of the past and present and they produce drum kits that in many ways are far superior to the kits of the past, especially in the lower price ranges! These are JUST my opinions, but I think many of the folks reading this will agree, especially the "old timers"... Dale, lets compare a set of Whitehalls against a set of Pacifics... Let's compare "Kent" drums to Pearl Exports... I mean... the difference is LAUGHABLE! Todays lower priced drums FAR EXCEED the quality of most vintage kits!

So it's clear you won't change, and don't want to. It's also clear that you don't actually like the sound of drums in their modern incarnations, and fair enough, that's your right.

But remember that predisposition when you give advice on this board. Perhaps you should start your posts by saying "I don't actually like the sound of modern drums, but here's my advice anyway..." I'm not saying people should dismiss your input or opinions... I'm just suggesting that you make sure they understand that you are coming from a very narrow scope with an even narrower point of view.

<> There are a ton of drums coming into this country and alot of them are all the same shells (china) and the same hardware,the same tom mounts etc etc just with a different name I will agree with you WOW!!!!!! that the hardware is superior to old kits Wait i said that in my last post HMMMM you did not mention me saying that. Ludwigs Rogers Gretch and Slingerland and Premier all had a cheap line and like the cheap lines of today they do not measure up to the top of the line models but what young kid can afford a top of the line DW set at 7 ,000 dollars? Vintage kits were more user friendly,with less gimmicks and more features . I had Ludwigs and i traded them in on Rogers simply for the fact of Rogers superior shells,and time proved me right they were built like a tank so i am biased to them they have servered me well and for the money i see nothing on the market that surpasses them. I am sure there are great drum makers out there today like i said pearl and Yamaha are good drums i also am impressed with Taye and their big brother Ayyote (sp)the list is endless i am sure but in this life i will not be needing to switch. what you said is pretty much close to the truth i do NOT like the sound of MOST modern drums,just as i am not a fan of most moderen music so sue me, i still like Robert Johnson and Howlin wolfit is what i like get over it.
I never gave any advice on this board,you again have me doing stuff i have not done i have given my opinion on the subject of dampening toms i have made it very clear except to you that i do not expect anyone to like me or my ideas they have to do what make them happy just like is do,and if i am coming from a narrow scope and point of view you sir need to put a hat on to cover your hairless head you have been in the sun to long and it is effecting you judgment,you are arrogant and egotistical to the max,and i am not doing this anymore i will be the bigger man and say you win.Listen everyone zen is the man follow his advice and you can't go wrong..there that should make you happy.
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Shalaq
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Post Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:26 am

I see we have a heated discussion here :D
@Mike_T you were talkingabout people stuffing their kick drums with pillows. Today the most popular size for a kick is 22x18. I think that people don't use 4-6 inches of their bass drum depth. They stuff them with pillows etc etc. How much character and tone of the drum is left when you do this? Back in the days( when I wasn't born yet ;) ) the most popular depth of a kick was 14 inch and I think that's the best depth for a kick drum ever. In my rehearsals I use an abused set of Czech(I think) drums AMATI. Sizes- 12x8, 16x16, 22x14. Although the drums are in a ad condition, the kick sounds very good.
I have a 22x18 kick and the only muffling is a towel taped to the batter head and a small piullow OUTSIDE of the drum laying on the floor and touching about 2 bottom inches of the head. Reso head has no hole, when I gig I use a head with a hole and a small towel- roll it up and put into the drum so that it touches the head.
As time went by, drum manufacturers produced and will produce deeper and deeper kicks, claiming that it will give players more low end etc etc. Yes, you do have more low end, but you have to let the drum ring to hear it. I laugh at people who stuff their kicks with pillows and say that they have a great sounding kick. Why do you buy a 22x18, tune it low and stuff it with muffling so that it has zero resonance? it sounds like a 22x5 kick, not 18. Want some great kick sound? Buy a 24x14(or better, but a 26x14), tune it higher(tune it to get that pitch that you'd normally want to achieve when tuning a smaller drum low) so that a 24 will sound like a 22 and use only as little muffling as to achieve the feel of the bater you want( on the AMATI kick I used a reso with a hole and a small towel to deaden the feel and I'm good to go). The thing when you tune a bigger drum high is that you get to a point whenthe drum is starting to choke naturally. I think I don't have to say that this naturally eliminates some resonance. But you do get a low note and a full sound from it. The sustain is also as long as it should be- a true low-end warm smack that will beautifully work with the rest of the kit.
As to hardware today, look at old beatles pictures and look at pearl 2000 series hardware. I think that although you might prefer round bearing edges or the technology that was used to make drums back then, you shouldn't say that hardware is crappy nowadays. It's massive, sturdy and reliable. I played some old hardware and although I don't hit hard, I wouldn't like to hang my 22 inch extra heavy ride on a boom stand from 1960s. I have a pearl stand that hold my ride and a heavy 17 crash.
Cheers and let them ring(all in all)! I use bigger drums to make them naturally choke a little and to sound full when they sound like smaller drums pitchwise. That way I have a very full sound, good sustain and I'm happy :) I think my kit never sounded better(compared to the times I used a 10 14 16 tom config or likewise).
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Dale
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Post Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:33 am

Mike T wrote:


I am old school don't like the new school.


You are of course entitled to tune as you desire. It's your sound after all. Apparently Gadd's drums sound dead, but come alive when he plays them.

What I am curious about is this old school comment. When I listen to Krupa, Webb, Baby Dodds, Davey Tough, Buddy, Jo Jones etc right up through the decades into the 60's spanning about 40 odd years of recorded drumming, all the drums sound live and open.

Don't you mean college or 4th year apprentice school????

Old school means live open sounding drums. ;)

He he he. :D :P

Sorry, couldn't resist trying to lighten it up.

But seriously, drums only sounded dead for about ten years. Then most people discarded that in favour of a more powerful and then livelier sound. I guess you like the '70's sound'.
I don't know what I'm talking about!

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Mike T
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Post Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:46 am

Shalaq ,, you are most likely 100% correct in your assesment of drum sizes,i never looked at that aspect but it is true todays manufactures do make 22x18 etc i have two rogers kits one has two 20x14 kicks and the other has one 22x14 and one 24x14 i can configure them from a small single kick 1 tom 1 floor ton to a big set in all cases i muffle or dampen my kicks with felt strips batter and resonant, they still have resonance but they also have a defening punch

As for hardware if you read my posts i clearly state i think todays hardware is superior in all ways ,but i still like my old ludwig speed king pedals but i am sure there are many as good .also thanks for keeping your post civil it is appericiated..happy new year..

Dale...i guess i still like what you call the dead sound in the same way Eric Clapton still likes his stratocasters or Warren haynes still like his 59 les paul ,or the same way most all good Guitar players want a fender twin reverb TUBE amp,,they sound better to them they give them what they want,and it is personell taste.
To me those years from 1965 to 1979 the drums were far from dead and what you call more powerfull and livelier,does not appeal to me bottom line...but i am certainly not going to try to change your mind to my way of thinking because i do not hear through your ears...we are all individuals we have different tastes and that is a good thing..happy new year..
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Post Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:11 am

Mike T wrote:
Dale...i guess i still like what you call the dead sound in the same way Eric Clapton still likes his stratocasters or Warren haynes still like his 59 les paul ,or the same way most all good Guitar players want a fender twin reverb TUBE amp,,they sound better to them they give them what they want,and it is personell taste.
To me those years from 1965 to 1979 the drums were far from dead and what you call more powerfull and livelier,does not appeal to me bottom line...but i am certainly not going to try to change your mind to my way of thinking because i do not hear through your ears...we are all individuals we have different tastes and that is a good thing..happy new year..


That's fair enough. Any musician wants to express himself in the manner that best reflects his personal self and his or her creativity. You should do what you think best.

Changing my mind should not be something you even consider. Just as I don't want to change yours. Enough of that goes on in this industry with the uniformity that seems to exist across a LOT of popular music.

If that is the sound you love, I say go on loving it! Imagine how terrible it would be to be stripped of something that you love so much in music. I mean seriously, we poor humans have to deal with enough loss as it is in our lives without losing music. You can tell how it hit Beethoven when you listen to the music he wrote after going deaf. Depressing to say the least. To my ears anyway.

I think these drum forum things can seem strange. When two opposing viewpoints get posted beside one another, it often seems to be a disagreement. When really it may just be that, two different opinions. I think this is how flame wars develop.

Keep on keeping on Mike. And enjoy yourself. That's the bottom line.
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Mike T
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Post Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:39 am

You are so right the internet seems indeed a strange place and even stranger to try and express a idea that differes from someone else. Musicians are individuals who collectively,put their ideas talents together to create more music it would be indeed a sad day if we all played alike and sounded alike..you have very good wisdow my friend and you use it well peace to you and your and i hope 2007 is very very good year for you..
Dale
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Post Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:44 am

Mike T wrote:You are so right the internet seems indeed a strange place and even stranger to try and express a idea that differes from someone else. Musicians are individuals who collectively,put their ideas talents together to create more music it would be indeed a sad day if we all played alike and sounded alike..you have very good wisdow my friend and you use it well peace to you and your and i hope 2007 is very very good year for you..


Thanks Mike.

My 2007 started brilliantly. I found a small plastic practice pandeiro! I mean I actually found it. Not in a shop. Just laying there.

I didn't know there was such a thing. And yet here it is!

I'm stoked.

All the best for the new year to you too mate. :D
I don't know what I'm talking about!

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zen_drummer
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Post Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:30 pm

So... Check it out...

Now you get to read my opinions.

I don't want anybody to change in ways that would make them be unhappy... I don't want anybody to be unhappy at all. I was suggesting that Mike T try something different. There's no harm in that. He can always go back if he didn't like the outcome an experiment! Seriously now, The last reaction from him was as though I had suggested he swallow poison or something!

But while I'm on the subject, I have watched Mike T post message after message and I keep seeing his answers and opinions changing all over the map! In one post he didn't like double kick pedals because they are a "gimmick" and the second beater mutes the head, then he says he prefers double "base" drums (41 years of playing and you don't know it's bass?) because he likes two different diameters and pitches, these are clearly two different things! Then the thing with the tom tom mufflers rattling... he never heard of such a thing... next, he has a solution for the common problem. Which is it? His responses are filled with Rhetoric, confusing comparisons, typos and bad grammar, not to mention sarcastic "lol" and other comments as if to state he's superior in some way and we're all dumb for not seeing his point of view.

He's so argumentative that when I complemented him for being married so long he found a way to argue about THAT!

So WHAT if I dared to challenge Mike T's ideas. He claims I'm arrogant for doing so. Well Sir, there is a big difference between being able to concisely state my opinions and facts when I have them; and being arrogant. I suppose that only an arrogant man would say that he posts with humility, but I like to think I DO! I do thoughtfully look at what I'm saying, measure it against the facts as I know them and FREELY admit when I don't know the answer to a question. If you read my previous comments with a "tone" that is anything but friendly then you are making a projection that I did not intend to apply.

Now seriosuly, do you really think I CARE what Mike T's drums actually sound like? I Surely cannot hear them from my house! I DO care that some young drummer may stop by this board and read the comment "dampened drums are better because they punch through the mix" and actually believe such an archaic thought (it IS nonsense) and then share that idea with somebody else until it takes on a life of it's own. You see... many people believe what they read!

I'm really just trying to be helpful. I think it's our responsibility to make sure that the information posted on this forum is as correct as possible! It will only be a valuable resource if we do that. I really feel it is important that we make this a great place for drummers of all ages and experience levels to learn and grow from participating in these forums. I think we ALL should check our EGO's at the door.

And for feeling that way, Mike T rallied to attack me personally. I was challenging his ideas in an open debate... (this is a forum, right?) He was debating right back. It was all good natured and constructive. Then he had to trump me by name calling and commenting about my lack of hair (which I do lack, but sheesh, that's not nice)

For your reference...
you sir need to put a hat on to cover your hairless head you have been in the sun to long and it is effecting you judgment,you are arrogant and egotistical to the max


As far as I'm concerned that's unfair and uncalled for... Of course that's just my opinion.
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Shalaq
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Post Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:02 am

This is a public place, we all have to be civil and friendly. The bottom line is, we all love the same instrument. Personally i think drums that ring sound better than dampened ones and I will stick with that. If Mike_T wants to have dampened drums, that's his choice. But I agree with Zen_d about one thing.
@Mike_T- if you will let them ring, It won't be heard as much as you think. This is what I always tell my bandmates. When they "play" my kit, they say that it rings out too much and it should be dampened. But when we rehearse, it all gets lost and they don't complain. Probably if you'd let them ring more, you would be the only one hearing the ring. The audience will hear the same attack(if you have a good sound guy) with more character of the drum. THat's why I've always been for dampening the least amount possible, because I worked my a$$ off to afford my drums and I want my n. american maple/walnut shells to be heard ;)
The point that I want to make is that leaving the drums open and ringin is harmless as far as the quality of sound. I just think that the more you dampen the more the drum looses it's natural tone and character.

I've just come up with an idea that will illustrate how sound changes depending on who hears the kit.
Let's say we generally have 4 types of heads:
A. 1 ply thin(diplomat)
B. 1 ply thick(G1/ Ambassador)
C. 2 ply thin(G2/Emperor)
D. 2 ply dampened(Pinstripe, EC2 etc).
If we make ourselves a scale of sustain from 0 to 5(0- no sustain at all, 5- wide open sound) this is how it would look from the drummers perspective:
A B C D
5 4 3 2 1 0
Because we still hear some of that ring even with thick heads with controll rings etc. If you use E-rings, than I think you should go 1 point below (Ambassador normaly 4 points, with E-ring 3 points etc).
From the audience/band perspective:
A B C D
3 2 1 0
At least that's how I see/hear it.
In a studio situation it depends on the technique of miking. But the bottom line for studio is that to have a good sound with mikes requires a good acoustic sound.
Mapex, Istanbul Agop, Attack, Vater/O4D.
I want an endorsement :)
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Dale
session drummer
session drummer
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Location: Aus

Post Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:20 am

Zen Drummer, you're a legend. I wouldn't worry about anything here. It's just forums, they're strange and people react to this strangeness in the most unexpected ways.

I've been reading all your posts and have really enjoyed what you have had to say.

The fact of the matter is that on a forum two conflicting viewpoints side by side can appear to be argumentative. This is just how it appears and people being people will react differently. Sometimes even seemingly at loggerheads. And then they do come to this point because the appearance is often difficult to interpret.

We're all dealing with people whom we do not know. This is bound to cause a degree of confusion and misunderstanding. I think if everyone recognises that, we may not be as hard on ourselves as we sometimes are.
I don't know what I'm talking about!

"Don't play FOR people. Play WITH people."
- Papa Jo Jones
Mike T
drumming adept
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Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:08 pm
Location: Idaho

Post Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:35 am

Shalaq .. that is a good way to put it,and i do understand what you are saying ,but you must understand from my point as well i wear in ear monitors live but not when i practice,when i hear that huge amount of ring (overtones) it drives me crazy...and with the amount i dampen i hear very well with the monitors in...and i like my system..works for me but your way of showing is very well illistrated.. Thanks

Zen... If you had not been so relentless in your attack of the way i do things i would never have stooped to your level and made the comment about your lack of hair but it got your attention,and that was the desired effect.

If you go back and read your posts you call me inexperienced,less talented than some one who tunes with overtones,and you constantly kept stating your opinions as facts...you have taken it upon your self (for some unknown reason) to say what is ok and what is not ok for people on this board to find as good information...that sir is very egotistical and self centered.

How about i say i am sorry for any and all comments directed towards you and you and i agree to disagree about this subject and we leave it like it is "done with..."

After all all the young bucks on this forum are not going to take advice from a couple of old farts like us ,they are at the age they know everything and they will figure out what works for them just like we did...
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zen_drummer
groove master
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Posts: 1898
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:17 pm
Location: Rochester NY

Post Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:43 am

Mike T wrote: Zen... If you had not been so relentless in your attack of the way i do things i would never have stooped to your level and made the comment about your lack of hair but it got your attention,and that was the desired effect..


It was a low blow and a cheap shot, and saying you stooped to "my level" is yet another cheap shot and it goes beyond the scope of a freindly interchange of ideas.

Mike T wrote:
If you go back and read your posts you call me inexperienced,less talented than some one who tunes with overtones,.


Show me... I just read the entire thread. I never said you lacked talent. (How could I? I've never heard you play!) I never said you lacked experience. (again, how would I know?) You cannot cite a single example of when I made those comments to you or about you, because I didn't. If I had, I would SURELY be making a public apology right here and now.

Mike T wrote: and you constantly kept stating your opinions as facts...


I quoted facts as facts, and my opinions as opinions. Some of these things are based on the laws of physics. They have observable and repeatable outcomes. They are the LAWS of phyisics and not the "opinions" of physics.

Mike T wrote:
you have taken it upon your self (for some unknown reason) to say what is ok and what is not ok for people on this board to find as good information...that sir is very egotistical and self centered.


Let me share with you my "unknown reason" so it becomes known and there are no hidden agendas. I care about this board and feel it is a valuable and useful resource for both young and old drummers, alike. That is pretty clearly not self centered.

Dale and Shalaq, I appreciate your comments. I understand how flame wars begin, and it would be nice to not have one. I don't, however, appreciate it when someone sarcastically apologizes only to turn around in the next sentence and insult me again. To claim that I started it by calling him untalented and inexperienced is really rediculous, beacuse the posts are right here for everybody to actually read and review. At no point did I do such a thing and I'm actually horrified that he would suggest that I had. Perhaps HE should read the thread again and post where I did this.

Or better still... just forget it. Let's move on because I've wasted way too much time on an idea that has clearly been beaten to death three to five times over.
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Mike T
drumming adept
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Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:08 pm
Location: Idaho

Post Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:13 am

Here ya go i will quote it for you ..it was on this page and you will see it is not the words but how you use them that insults people.

you said quote<>I have a pretty extensive Discography over the uears, and I've played a lot of commercial jingle sessions as well. While it's true "some" players have a pillow in their bass drum, I wouldn't say MOST do, but I'll agree, many do. The better, more experienced players I know eventually came around to the thinking that dampened drums don't sound as good as wide open drums. end quote <>

Now since i am obviously in the other camp that dampens their drums i also obviously by your own words am inexperienced and lack talent.... think before you post, Zen again it is not the words but your use of them ,back off a bit relax and understand not everyone thinks like either you or me it is ok to disagree on things...