Neil Peart's endorsement

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SmellsLikeIan
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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:11 am

skitch wrote:
Smells,

You obviously didn't read what I wrote. And how do you know what Sabian, DW or anyone else did for Neil? Will he be making a royalty for the cymbals, drums and sticks which his name and likeness sells for the companies he endorses - most likely! And why shouldn't he? But don't marshal an argument based on something you "assume" is happening. And don't attack me for something, which I didn't write.

How do you know anything about Neil's personal life anyway?

You obviously don't know much about the gear he has played over the years as I don't recall Sonor or Pearl ever being brands that he used, since I was around during the early years of Rush, albeit a 13 year old! And I bet you didn't know that Steve Smith once used Paiste!

He came up playing a Slingerland set, and then went to Tama, then to Ludwig then to DW. There was an entire article in Modern Drummer which Neil himself wrote about why he chose the Ludwigs (1989 or 1990). I don't know why he left Zildjian but it may have been the passing of Armand and the subsequent "inheriting " of the Zildjian Company to Craggie. Neil may have just felt better about dealing with Armand's brother, Robert Zildjian (owner of Sabian and one-time the main artists relations officer for Zildjian and a heckuva nice guy to boot) than with his niece at Zildjian cymbals. Maybe it was the personal touch which is becoming more important than ever in this high-tech world!

Maybe Neil was excited about the fact that Sabian was willing to offer something a little different than the same old Ping Ride and New Beat hi hats that Neil has been using since birth!

Truth is, we will never really know why Neil left Zildjian or Tama or Ludwig. It could be a matter of support on the road and with Tama's poor attitude toward service; I can understand why Neil would leave! After all, at that time, Tama had a pretty impressive roster of artists selling drums for them: Stewart Copeland, Denny Carmassi (Heart), Frank Beard (ZZ Top) all who regularly outsold Rush in album sales. The Police, Heart and ZZ Top were regulars in the top 10 of hit songs during the 1980s. What was Rush doing at that time, sales-wise? Not even in the same ballpark as the three bands previously listed. WE all know who Rush is ; we're drummers and musicians! Outside of the musician/drummer circle, hw many "civilians" go to a Rush cincert?

This is also why Rush switched record labels in 1989. The new label was willing to help THEM sell more records. How often does a label do that?

So it takes a company with a vision or a passion or both. This is why Neil probably wound up at DW. Watch any video of John Good and the thing that comes across is his passion for the gear being better! That's what came across to me when I visited the DW plant in 2001. Neil switched from Ludwig, who made great drums but also lousy hardware, to DW who excels at both and was setting the gold standard at that time. He could have both great hardware and drums with great artist relations with a company run by a drummer (Don) and a drum enthusiast (John). He could have it all with one company!

Ever look at the drummers DW has on their roster and ask why? It is because these guys love music and are drummers; they are not accountants - but I digress!

One of the things which most drummers don't realize the tremendous beating a drum kit takes on the road. And I don't mean from the playing aspect; I mean from being put in the cases, loaded into a semi, being pulled out of the cases and set-up night after night! I have some idea as one of my kits is starting to look a little frazzled! This is stuff that you won't see, even from the second row. I do remember Rush being in OKC right after Neil switched to Ludwig but was still using Tama stands. In the middle of a song, the snare stand broke! Solution: drum tech, bring me another snare stand! This is why bands with big tours get so much gear; they need it in case something breaks in the middle of a show on a Sunday night in "who knows where a drum shop is in Oklahoma City and will it be open" land!

But to sit there and claim that it was all about the money? It sounds as though you are a little jealous, bitter and angry. And you have painted one of the most prolific drummers in history as some sort of mercenary!

Am I the number one Neil Peart fan - probably not. I stopped buying Rush albums at a Show of Hands because I got into two drummers that Neil said he likes in an interview in 1989, Phil Gould (Level 42) and Manu Katche ( Peter Gabriel, Sting). But I do admire a band which has stuck it out for 34 years together and stood by their principles of not just commercializing their sound for the sake of more record sales. Many rock bands from the 1970s tried commercializing in the 1980s world but failed.



Okay, sorry. I mixed up responses. My response to Johnny Cat should have been directed toward you. My mistake.

But Jesus Effin Christ lay off, dude. I never claimed to be the biggest Rush fan ever, but in no way am I jealous, bitter or angry. I also said in my post that I was merely speculating on this matter. I never claimed to know a damn thing about Neil's personal life, nor do I care to. And I could give 2 shits less to know that Steve Smith played Paiste. I understand that gear takes a beating on the road, I've been playing over 120 shows a year now for the past three, and before that I averaged around 80 most years, but I have been playing the same custom maple kit for over 10 years. With the same cymbals. And the same stands. Until last year most of the shows were 4 sets. None of my stuff is broken, quite the opposite in fact. So you won't convince me that he switched companies because shit wore out all the time. All I was trying to say is that there was likely a large sum of money involved, and you apparently agreed. But you or I will likely never know what it's like to have that kind of money waved at us for endorsing a product and the fact is that to me, Neil (and many other drummers as well) has switched companies enough times that while I'm sure the gear he uses is top notch, and quality is an issue, money also weighs in rather heavily. Go buy yourself some Paragons......I'm done.
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Johnny Cat
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Post Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:05 pm

Yeah with all respect, I gotta say that was just a bit harsh and blown way outta proportion.
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skitch
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Post Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:02 am

SmellsLikeIan wrote:


Okay, sorry. I mixed up responses. My response to Johnny Cat should have been directed toward you. My mistake.

But Jesus Effin Christ lay off, dude. I never claimed to be the biggest Rush fan ever, but in no way am I jealous, bitter or angry. I also said in my post that I was merely speculating on this matter. I never claimed to know a damn thing about Neil's personal life, nor do I care to. And I could give 2 shits less to know that Steve Smith played Paiste. I understand that gear takes a beating on the road, I've been playing over 120 shows a year now for the past three, and before that I averaged around 80 most years, but I have been playing the same custom maple kit for over 10 years. With the same cymbals. And the same stands. Until last year most of the shows were 4 sets. None of my stuff is broken, quite the opposite in fact. So you won't convince me that he switched companies because shit wore out all the time. All I was trying to say is that there was likely a large sum of money involved, and you apparently agreed. But you or I will likely never know what it's like to have that kind of money waved at us for endorsing a product and the fact is that to me, Neil (and many other drummers as well) has switched companies enough times that while I'm sure the gear he uses is top notch, and quality is an issue, money also weighs in rather heavily. Go buy yourself some Paragons......I'm done.


Smells,

I never agreed with you on the large sums of money thing. And you need to go back and reread some of the very statements you made. "You can bet"?

I play upwards of 300 shows a year and most, if not all, are four sets. As for Tama, I used them from 1992 to 2002, ten years. Their hardware was always needing to be fixed. Mostly because Tama chose to use cheap, white metal in many of the load-bearing areas. This would be where threads are located and tightened up. I became an expert on fixing Tama stand in those ten years. And as I said, I was there when Neil's snare stand broke. Right in the middle of a concert.

You did state in a matter of fact way that large sums of cash were involved. Now, you are saying that "likely" a large sum of money was involved.

Neil is far from a "product hopper". In 34 years he has changed drum brands 3 times and cymbal companies once. The change from Slingerland to Tama was at a time when birch was the big thing. Tama's Superstar line was made of birch at that time.

Drum kits wear out because of being handled every night and slammed around in the cases in a semi trailer, from being removed from the cases from mic cables being dragged across them and the like. This also how guys like the Drum Doctor, Russ Garfield stay in business. Not only as a cartage service, but to repair worn out drums with great sentimental value to their owners.

Like I said, Neil is probably getting a royalty for the cymbals he sells for Sabian as well as a royalty for the sticks he sells for Promark. The royalty for his Paragons would be similiar to the royalties he gets for being the songwriter (lyricist) credited for most of Ruish's songs, which is probably what pays for his Scotch and his motorcycle journeys, as brought up by someone else.

As I stated in my prior post, I am not a Rush fan. But I don't like your tone towards drummers who get endorsements and have seen success and I don't care for your filthy language and bad attitude towards me. This is a great way (note the sacrcasm) to win friends over. isn't it?

And I really don't need your permission to buy whatever cymbals I want.
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Johnny Cat
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Post Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:32 am

skitch wrote:. This also how guys like the Drum Doctor, Russ Garfield stay in business. Not only as a cartage service, but to repair worn out drums with great sentimental value to their owners.


Kudos for mentioning the Drum Doctor! I think this is the first time I've ever seen him and his business mentioned on here. That guy is a god send to touring and recording drummers everywhere. More people should know about the trouble the go to, to do what they do best.

I have not had experience with him myself, but have seen, read and heard about him and his business, and so many artists and engineers alike praising him.
Tama Rockstar Custom 10-Pc
Paiste and Sabian cymbals
Tama "RoadPro" Hardware
Axis "X" Longboard Pedals
Regal Tip "Jazz E" and Promark "Elvin Jones" and "747" Drumsticks
Regal Tip "Ed Thigpen" Brushes
Remo and Evans Drumheads
Gretz
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Post Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:38 am

He's not getting paid.
Contrary to popular belief musicians never get paid to play gear.
They may get FREE gear.... but they don't get paid.

Music endorsements are not like Sneaker endorsements for athletes.

I don't know of any musician that gets paid to play gear, it's not how the industry is set up.

Endorsement contracts usually work on a year to year basis and anything can happen in that time period... i've known guys that played one particular guitar or drum for many years and left the company they were with strictly because there was an employee turnonver and the new A & R person at the company wasn't doing a good job and left them high and dry.

With one simple employee change an entire company's priorities can change and an artist that was getting great attention and his/her needs filled can be shuffled to the bottom.

When you're on tour and you are used to a certain level of help from a company you endorse, it can be crippling to not be able to have gear ready for a tour that you were counting on.

It's very possible that Neil wasn't happy with Zildjian and decided that Sabian was a better home. Sabian makes out because they get a new line of cymblas, his name etc. Zildjian benefitted from having neil on board for as long as they did. I don't think anyone's feelings were hurt. This kind of change happens all the time for these companies. It's part of "the biz" as they say.

Keep in mind also, a few years back Neil has himself stated that he started from scratch and re-evaluated his playing and set up. Not only did he change cymbals but he also changed drum companies. It seems to me that he was trying to start over on all fronts.
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Johnny Cat
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Post Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:34 am

Gretz wrote:He's not getting paid.
Contrary to popular belief musicians never get paid to play gear.
They may get FREE gear.... but they don't get paid.


Pretty sure that one varies from company to company and artist to artist. It depends on the individual contract that they all agree to and sign. Some get paid, some only get a royalty for allowing the company to use their name in ads and on the product, some get nothing. Some get free shit, some merely get discounts. Like Neil and DW. They GAVE him every kit that was built for him. Lorne Wheaton confirmed this when I met him. I don't see any reason why he would lie. He wasn't boasting about it, merely answering questions.


It's very possible that Neil wasn't happy with Zildjian and decided that Sabian was a better home. Sabian makes out because they get a new line of cymblas, his name etc.


Quite possible:

"This little story really begins back in 1974 when I first joined Rush. I bought a 22" ride cymbal that happened to be made in a little factory in Meductic, New Brunswick, and I used that same ride cymbal for the next 29 years. In more recent times I started to hear other drummers - friends of mine, playing Sabians, and I got a little curious and decided to give them a try. To my great surprise they really blew my old cymbals off their stands." - Neil Peart.

So there you have it.

Zildjian benefitted from having neil on board for as long as they did. I don't think anyone's feelings were hurt. This kind of change happens all the time for these companies. It's part of "the biz" as they say.


The thing is though, one company has his name actually on the cymbals, the other did not. He merely played them. Sure, it did heaps for Zildjian's sales, but not so much for Neil. I'm willing to bet he gets a royalty with every Sabian cymbal sale because his name is on there. Rush's manager Ray Daniels is a very shrewd business man, as are the rest of Rush as a matter of fact, though they are very generous with their money.

No, Neil did not switch to Sabian for any money, but I'd be willing to bet he gets a royalty because these have his name on them.

The industry is set up in more ways than just one. It depends on the artist and company in question, because they don't all do things the same way.
Tama Rockstar Custom 10-Pc
Paiste and Sabian cymbals
Tama "RoadPro" Hardware
Axis "X" Longboard Pedals
Regal Tip "Jazz E" and Promark "Elvin Jones" and "747" Drumsticks
Regal Tip "Ed Thigpen" Brushes
Remo and Evans Drumheads
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skitch
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Post Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:25 pm

SmellsLikeIan wrote:Skitch, I don't care to be your friend. And I don't harbor any resentment toward Neil or any other drummer with an endorsement. In fact I'm working on my own right now. But you started this pissing match. I was merely responding to your assholish tirade against me. And as I stated in the post that got your panties in a wad in the first place, no I don't know any of this to be fact so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I stated nothing "in a matter of fact way" as you put it. Sorry if you took it as gospel. But if you want to get a shitty attitude with me, I am going to stand up for myself. And like I said before, apparently we agree that some $$ is changing hands....So what's your goddamn problem? And if my language bothers you that much, why haven't you been bitching about the other foul mouthed people here. And so what about the drum doctor. People who take care of their shit usually don't need their drums repaired. I do hear that he does good work though.


Smells,

I never agreed with you.

You probably are going to be working hard on that endorsement deal for a long, long time with the way you represent yourself. Companies don't like to associate themselves with people who cuss someone out in public whether vocally or in print. They like endorsers who can actually handle themselves with some aplomb, class, and dignity - you have none of these. You have no clue. You don't seems to realize that the people you are cussing out could end up in as postion to help you one day, i.e A&R for a record company, being the Artists' relation officer at a manufacturer or being a producer. These people can make or break you. You are going to want something from them. Yet because you insist on acting in a juvenile manner and insulting them personally, you probably won't get that help. It isn't always about you, Ian! Lose your Rockstar mentality when you are around me or speak to me, Ian!

And there is alot of competition out there with you Ian! You might the greatest player but if no one can stand to be around you, you aren't going to get very far!
Last edited by skitch on Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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skitch
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Post Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:30 pm

Johnny Cat wrote:
skitch wrote:. This also how guys like the Drum Doctor, Russ Garfield stay in business. Not only as a cartage service, but to repair worn out drums with great sentimental value to their owners.


Kudos for mentioning the Drum Doctor! I think this is the first time I've ever seen him and his business mentioned on here. That guy is a god send to touring and recording drummers everywhere. More people should know about the trouble the go to, to do what they do best.

I have not had experience with him myself, but have seen, read and heard about him and his business, and so many artists and engineers alike praising him.


I remember an article he wrote for MD where he detailed how he restored some vintage Ludwigs for Matt Sorum. I think they were the red sparkle, mohagany shells.
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skitch
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Post Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:32 pm

Gretz wrote:He's not getting paid.
Contrary to popular belief musicians never get paid to play gear.
They may get FREE gear.... but they don't get paid.

Music endorsements are not like Sneaker endorsements for athletes.

I don't know of any musician that gets paid to play gear, it's not how the industry is set up.

Endorsement contracts usually work on a year to year basis and anything can happen in that time period... i've known guys that played one particular guitar or drum for many years and left the company they were with strictly because there was an employee turnonver and the new A & R person at the company wasn't doing a good job and left them high and dry.

With one simple employee change an entire company's priorities can change and an artist that was getting great attention and his/her needs filled can be shuffled to the bottom.

When you're on tour and you are used to a certain level of help from a company you endorse, it can be crippling to not be able to have gear ready for a tour that you were counting on.

It's very possible that Neil wasn't happy with Zildjian and decided that Sabian was a better home. Sabian makes out because they get a new line of cymblas, his name etc. Zildjian benefitted from having neil on board for as long as they did. I don't think anyone's feelings were hurt. This kind of change happens all the time for these companies. It's part of "the biz" as they say.

Keep in mind also, a few years back Neil has himself stated that he started from scratch and re-evaluated his playing and set up. Not only did he change cymbals but he also changed drum companies. It seems to me that he was trying to start over on all fronts.


Thanks for the info....there are different levels for endorsers. Some get free equipment, some get the gear at cost. Also, I heard vicious rumor that Buddy Rich would sell some of his free stuff from time to time.