Double strokes HELP!!!

Post drum lessons here! Share your talents, give some tips, or get new tips and learn to play new stuff!

Moderator: Moderators

RFLTenors
beginner
beginner
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:22 am
Location: Walkersville, MD

Post Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:02 pm

Empyrean Drums wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
Empyrean Drums wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
Can you eloborate more on sticking technique? Last time I checked we were talking about double strokes! Personally I would start someone out on a drum before moving to a cymbal! There is a little bit of rebound when using the hi-hat but you will have to stroke it out a little more! Neither the hi-hat nor carpet are in the same realm as a pillow! Don't put words in my mouth and don't change your story! I knew you hadn' t witnessed it!


Sticking technique i.e.-practicing on soft surfaces (such as a pillow) to train your hands and wrists instead of depending on rebound so that way you can "stroke it out a little more" when playing on something else other then a tightly tuned marching drum. You asserted that the rebound of a drum is required to practice and play proper doubles, which it is not.


This is getting no where! Thanks for the debate! No harsh feelings! Good luck to you!


Sorry man, I was really trying to make my point without seeming like a dick or trashing your opinion. It sounded different in my head then when I re-read it....


No apology necessary! It's all good! It's all personal preference man! My way has worked for me and many of my students! I wasn't trying to be a dick either! I'm just very passionate! I look forward to debating with you in the future! Thanks again my fellow drummer!
Pearl drums and hardware
Paiste cymbals
Vic Firth drum sticks
Evans drum heads
Aquarian drum heads
DW pedals
Axis pedals
SGarrett
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5166
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:59 am

Post Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:37 pm

RFLTenors wrote:
Alan_ wrote:so you're trying to tell us that it's impossible to double strokes on a pillow?

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

That's rich!

You can't do really fast double strokes on a pillow, but you can most certainly play them. Do the following: find a pillow, pick up a pair of sticks, play RRLLRRLL. DONE!

practicing on a pillow is great for developing the muscles involved in playing. I don't recommend overdoing it, because you can strain those muscles, but it's a great workout.


Come on Alan! Please pay attention before you open you mouth! The majority of this debate is based on playing double strokes at high bpm's on a pillow! Of couse it can be done slowly you clown!


Dude, you need to chill out. If you can't argue your opinion respectfully you aren't welcome on this forum. There is absolutely NO need to insult people because they have a different opinion than you do.

The fact of the matter is that even BUDDY RICH advocated practice on a pillow. Are you going to tell us the he didn't have fast hands?

The only way to gain control is practice slowly. If you can control what you do on a surface that doesn't have any amount of rebound, you can control your sticks on a drum kit. This is not meant as a substitute for practice on a pad or on the kit. It's meant as an addition to that practice.

This is the guy who says that you should be able to play a clean double-stroke on your thigh. Please tell me that he doesn't have chops or stick control.
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_NfUJLv42WU&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_NfUJLv42WU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZjLR4vb2rhU&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZjLR4vb2rhU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

I've personally watched this man easily play doubles at 150bhp on his thigh, standing right in front of me, more than three dozen different times.

Maybe you'd like to try opening your mind to something new instead of rejecting it so readily?
"If the goal is for me to give up my reality for your reality, then the goal is for me to give up my self for your self--a goal I have to reject."
RFLTenors
beginner
beginner
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:22 am
Location: Walkersville, MD

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:13 am

SGarrett wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
Alan_ wrote:so you're trying to tell us that it's impossible to double strokes on a pillow?

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

That's rich!

You can't do really fast double strokes on a pillow, but you can most certainly play them. Do the following: find a pillow, pick up a pair of sticks, play RRLLRRLL. DONE!

practicing on a pillow is great for developing the muscles involved in playing. I don't recommend overdoing it, because you can strain those muscles, but it's a great workout.


Come on Alan! Please pay attention before you open you mouth! The majority of this debate is based on playing double strokes at high bpm's on a pillow! Of couse it can be done slowly you clown!


Dude, you need to chill out. If you can't argue your opinion respectfully you aren't welcome on this forum. There is absolutely NO need to insult people because they have a different opinion than you do.

The fact of the matter is that even BUDDY RICH advocated practice on a pillow. Are you going to tell us the he didn't have fast hands?

The only way to gain control is practice slowly. If you can control what you do on a surface that doesn't have any amount of rebound, you can control your sticks on a drum kit. This is not meant as a substitute for practice on a pad or on the kit. It's meant as an addition to that practice.

This is the guy who says that you should be able to play a clean double-stroke on your thigh. Please tell me that he doesn't have chops or stick control.
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_NfUJLv42WU&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_NfUJLv42WU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZjLR4vb2rhU&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZjLR4vb2rhU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

I've personally watched this man easily play doubles at 150bhp on his thigh, standing right in front of me, more than three dozen different times.

Maybe you'd like to try opening your mind to something new instead of rejecting it so readily?


Here, play this on a pillow!
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bgAQklCG5IQ&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bgAQklCG5IQ&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
Pearl drums and hardware
Paiste cymbals
Vic Firth drum sticks
Evans drum heads
Aquarian drum heads
DW pedals
Axis pedals
User avatar
Alan_
groove master
groove master
Posts: 4204
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:47 am
Location: austin, tx

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:22 am

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bgAQklCG5IQ&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bgAQklCG5IQ&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
RFLTenors
beginner
beginner
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:22 am
Location: Walkersville, MD

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:39 am

Alan_ wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
Alan_ wrote:so you're trying to tell us that it's impossible to double strokes on a pillow?

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

That's rich!

You can't do really fast double strokes on a pillow, but you can most certainly play them. Do the following: find a pillow, pick up a pair of sticks, play RRLLRRLL. DONE!

practicing on a pillow is great for developing the muscles involved in playing. I don't recommend overdoing it, because you can strain those muscles, but it's a great workout.


Come on Alan! Please pay attention before you open you mouth! The majority of this debate is based on playing double strokes at high bpm's on a pillow! Of couse it can be done slowly you clown!


go back and read this thread and show me one place where anybody but you said anything about playing double strokes at high speed on a pillow.


shine.fm-youth metioned something about never using rebound when playing double strokes no matter how fast they get. then SGarrett recommended practicing on a pillow. put 2 and 2 together and you get playing double strokes at high speed on a pillow.
Pearl drums and hardware
Paiste cymbals
Vic Firth drum sticks
Evans drum heads
Aquarian drum heads
DW pedals
Axis pedals
User avatar
Alan_
groove master
groove master
Posts: 4204
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:47 am
Location: austin, tx

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:46 am

those are two separate statements/opinions.

tony williams actually sticked his doubles most of the time.

I understand where you're coming from. drum corps is all about teaching your players consistent technique, so you get good visual continuity as well as continuity of sound. it's important to have everyone on the same page. playing drumset by oneself (or even playing snare or tymp in an orchestra pit) doesn't require the same homogenity of technique between players. there's a variety of methods to achieve similar ends.
User avatar
Alan_
groove master
groove master
Posts: 4204
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:47 am
Location: austin, tx

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:50 am

personally, I try to visualize the stick as playing itself. I'm merely along for the ride. Of course it doesn't, but this ideation leads to the hands being extremely relaxed. I utilize rebound sometimes, stick the doubles sometimes. I tend to loosen up the thumb and forefinger, if anything. the "snap" comes from slight motion with the fingers.
RFLTenors
beginner
beginner
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:22 am
Location: Walkersville, MD

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:53 am

Alan_ wrote:those are two separate statements/opinions.

tony williams actually sticked his doubles most of the time.

I understand where you're coming from. drum corps is all about teaching your players consistent technique, so you get good visual continuity as well as continuity of sound. it's important to have everyone on the same page. playing drumset by oneself (or even playing snare or tymp in an orchestra pit) doesn't require the same homogenity of technique between players. there's a variety of methods to achieve similar ends.


I agree with you. shine.fm-youth brought drumline into the picture. My comments were in response to his initial statement. I should have been more specific. I marched with the Crossmen under a world class staff and we never played on pillows.
Pearl drums and hardware
Paiste cymbals
Vic Firth drum sticks
Evans drum heads
Aquarian drum heads
DW pedals
Axis pedals
User avatar
xdoseonex
groove master
groove master
Posts: 3889
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:07 pm
Location: New York

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:54 am

RFLTenors wrote:
xdoseonex wrote:
SGarrett wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
shine.fm-youth wrote:i taught my drumline, so me being a "drumline guy" i guess
i was always taught that double stokes are always two singles..
you never play re-bound, no matter how fast they get.
so i incorporate that into my kit playing


I disagree! Yes double strokes should be thought of as two individual strokes but you should absolutely use rebound. The sticks should be thought of as an extension of your own arm. You should get a wrist pop with each stroke no matter what the tempo is! Relax and allow the sticks to work with you! Control the sticks, don't let them control you! You may have to stroke something out more on certain things but always use the rebound! Where did you march? Who did you learn under? Where do you teach?


I know an extremely good drummer who claims "if you can't play a clean double stroke roll on your thigh, you can't really play one." This is also why so many top drummers recommend practicing on a pillow. You learn how to control each note as an individual.


I agree. thats not playing a double stroke. its playing a single stroke and relying on rebound to get out a second not.

Use rebound. Never rely on it


Did I ever use the word "rely?' NO! I don't think so! I said several times in my post "use" rebound! Thanks!


I looked for the part in my post where I said you used the word "rely". Couldnt find it. probly cuz it wasnt there
Proud to endorse TRICK Percussion
Image
RFLTenors
beginner
beginner
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:22 am
Location: Walkersville, MD

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:01 am

xdoseonex wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
xdoseonex wrote:
SGarrett wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
shine.fm-youth wrote:i taught my drumline, so me being a "drumline guy" i guess
i was always taught that double stokes are always two singles..
you never play re-bound, no matter how fast they get.
so i incorporate that into my kit playing


I disagree! Yes double strokes should be thought of as two individual strokes but you should absolutely use rebound. The sticks should be thought of as an extension of your own arm. You should get a wrist pop with each stroke no matter what the tempo is! Relax and allow the sticks to work with you! Control the sticks, don't let them control you! You may have to stroke something out more on certain things but always use the rebound! Where did you march? Who did you learn under? Where do you teach?


I know an extremely good drummer who claims "if you can't play a clean double stroke roll on your thigh, you can't really play one." This is also why so many top drummers recommend practicing on a pillow. You learn how to control each note as an individual.


I agree. thats not playing a double stroke. its playing a single stroke and relying on rebound to get out a second not.

Use rebound. Never rely on it


Did I ever use the word "rely?' NO! I don't think so! I said several times in my post "use" rebound! Thanks!


I looked for the part in my post where I said you used the word "rely". Couldnt find it. probly cuz it wasnt there


it sounded to me like you were putting words in my mouth. this is the problem with typing things as opposed to talking face to face.
Pearl drums and hardware
Paiste cymbals
Vic Firth drum sticks
Evans drum heads
Aquarian drum heads
DW pedals
Axis pedals
User avatar
xdoseonex
groove master
groove master
Posts: 3889
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:07 pm
Location: New York

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:56 am

RFLTenors wrote:
xdoseonex wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
xdoseonex wrote:
SGarrett wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
shine.fm-youth wrote:i taught my drumline, so me being a "drumline guy" i guess
i was always taught that double stokes are always two singles..
you never play re-bound, no matter how fast they get.
so i incorporate that into my kit playing


I disagree! Yes double strokes should be thought of as two individual strokes but you should absolutely use rebound. The sticks should be thought of as an extension of your own arm. You should get a wrist pop with each stroke no matter what the tempo is! Relax and allow the sticks to work with you! Control the sticks, don't let them control you! You may have to stroke something out more on certain things but always use the rebound! Where did you march? Who did you learn under? Where do you teach?


I know an extremely good drummer who claims "if you can't play a clean double stroke roll on your thigh, you can't really play one." This is also why so many top drummers recommend practicing on a pillow. You learn how to control each note as an individual.


I agree. thats not playing a double stroke. its playing a single stroke and relying on rebound to get out a second not.

Use rebound. Never rely on it


Did I ever use the word "rely?' NO! I don't think so! I said several times in my post "use" rebound! Thanks!


I looked for the part in my post where I said you used the word "rely". Couldnt find it. probly cuz it wasnt there


it sounded to me like you were putting words in my mouth. this is the problem with typing things as opposed to talking face to face.


Didnt mean for it to seem like that. I was using that as a VERY general statement
Proud to endorse TRICK Percussion
Image
RFLTenors
beginner
beginner
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:22 am
Location: Walkersville, MD

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:21 am

xdoseonex wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
xdoseonex wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
xdoseonex wrote:
SGarrett wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
shine.fm-youth wrote:i taught my drumline, so me being a "drumline guy" i guess
i was always taught that double stokes are always two singles..
you never play re-bound, no matter how fast they get.
so i incorporate that into my kit playing


I disagree! Yes double strokes should be thought of as two individual strokes but you should absolutely use rebound. The sticks should be thought of as an extension of your own arm. You should get a wrist pop with each stroke no matter what the tempo is! Relax and allow the sticks to work with you! Control the sticks, don't let them control you! You may have to stroke something out more on certain things but always use the rebound! Where did you march? Who did you learn under? Where do you teach?


I know an extremely good drummer who claims "if you can't play a clean double stroke roll on your thigh, you can't really play one." This is also why so many top drummers recommend practicing on a pillow. You learn how to control each note as an individual.


I agree. thats not playing a double stroke. its playing a single stroke and relying on rebound to get out a second not.

Use rebound. Never rely on it


Did I ever use the word "rely?' NO! I don't think so! I said several times in my post "use" rebound! Thanks!


I looked for the part in my post where I said you used the word "rely". Couldnt find it. probly cuz it wasnt there


it sounded to me like you were putting words in my mouth. this is the problem with typing things as opposed to talking face to face.


Didnt mean for it to seem like that. I was using that as a VERY general statement


it's all good
Pearl drums and hardware
Paiste cymbals
Vic Firth drum sticks
Evans drum heads
Aquarian drum heads
DW pedals
Axis pedals
User avatar
xdoseonex
groove master
groove master
Posts: 3889
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:07 pm
Location: New York

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:32 am

i'm gonna get back into [racticing on a pillow starting today
Proud to endorse TRICK Percussion
Image
SGarrett
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 5166
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:59 am

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:43 am

RFLTenors wrote:
Alan_ wrote:those are two separate statements/opinions.

tony williams actually sticked his doubles most of the time.

I understand where you're coming from. drum corps is all about teaching your players consistent technique, so you get good visual continuity as well as continuity of sound. it's important to have everyone on the same page. playing drumset by oneself (or even playing snare or tymp in an orchestra pit) doesn't require the same homogenity of technique between players. there's a variety of methods to achieve similar ends.


I agree with you. shine.fm-youth brought drumline into the picture. My comments were in response to his initial statement. I should have been more specific. I marched with the Crossmen under a world class staff and we never played on pillows.


You have an extremely closed mind and are boarding on being highly arrogant. If you knock the chip off of your shoulder you might actually be able to see what we're saying. Nobody, not one single person, says that you should practice playing fast on a pillow. I'm pretty sure I've even said to practice slowly at least two different times. When I say "slow", I mean 60bpm or less and I don't mean playing 64th notes or even 32nd notes. The heads on drum set drums are not glass tight. In fact, there is a difference between the feeling of your snare head, tom heads, hi-hats, and ride cymbal. The theory goes, if you can learn control on a surface that doesn't rebound you can play across all of these surfaces while accepting and using their natural rebound. You work on both, not just one. We use this same principle in martial arts. If you can throw a slow motion side kick with perfect technique, you have full control over that technique and will have the same form when you speed it up. It's about muscle control and muscle memory, it is never about speed.

Like Alan said, there are far more techniques than the one you know.
"If the goal is for me to give up my reality for your reality, then the goal is for me to give up my self for your self--a goal I have to reject."
RFLTenors
beginner
beginner
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:22 am
Location: Walkersville, MD

Post Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:21 am

SGarrett wrote:
RFLTenors wrote:
Alan_ wrote:those are two separate statements/opinions.

tony williams actually sticked his doubles most of the time.

I understand where you're coming from. drum corps is all about teaching your players consistent technique, so you get good visual continuity as well as continuity of sound. it's important to have everyone on the same page. playing drumset by oneself (or even playing snare or tymp in an orchestra pit) doesn't require the same homogenity of technique between players. there's a variety of methods to achieve similar ends.


I agree with you. shine.fm-youth brought drumline into the picture. My comments were in response to his initial statement. I should have been more specific. I marched with the Crossmen under a world class staff and we never played on pillows.


You have an extremely closed mind and are boarding on being highly arrogant. If you knock the chip off of your shoulder you might actually be able to see what we're saying. Nobody, not one single person, says that you should practice playing fast on a pillow. I'm pretty sure I've even said to practice slowly at least two different times. When I say "slow", I mean 60bpm or less and I don't mean playing 64th notes or even 32nd notes. The heads on drum set drums are not glass tight. In fact, there is a difference between the feeling of your snare head, tom heads, hi-hats, and ride cymbal. The theory goes, if you can learn control on a surface that doesn't rebound you can play across all of these surfaces while accepting and using their natural rebound. You work on both, not just one. We use this same principle in martial arts. If you can throw a slow motion side kick with perfect technique, you have full control over that technique and will have the same form when you speed it up. It's about muscle control and muscle memory, it is never about speed.

Like Alan said, there are far more techniques than the one you know.


I wouldn't use the word arrogant but yes I am very confident. I have every right to be and I feel that I can back it up with my playing! I agree you should work on mastering all tempos, dynamics, stick heights, etc. Yes your drums and cymbals have different feels so then practice on them. Practice on what you perform on. Even your most loosely tuned drum will not feel like a pillow. If you're using a pillow in one of your pieces then yes by all means practice on one. This is not martial arts. Just because you can play something slow and controlled does not mean you have mastered the technique in all aspects. You have to push outside of your comfort zone. If you want to play something fast then you have to practice playing fast.
Pearl drums and hardware
Paiste cymbals
Vic Firth drum sticks
Evans drum heads
Aquarian drum heads
DW pedals
Axis pedals