Vintage Ludwig kit

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Vintage Ludwig kit

Postby Mitchell? » Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:50 am

Well, I need to know everything you guys can tell me about this kit.

Is it authentic?

Time period?

How much is it worth?

and pretty much most of all, is it worth the $575 he's asking?

Thanks guys!
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Vintage Ludwig kit

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Postby eml » Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:04 am

What kit...? :-)
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Postby Mitchell? » Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:09 am

Hahahaha.....

Sorry. Here's the link:

http://lexington.craigslist.org/msg/799148730.html
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Postby Quinn » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:18 am

WOW! I'm not an expert but that looks like a steal.
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Postby LyriCa1z » Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:48 pm

Definitely appears to be a good deal. They seem very well taken care of.
-Pearl Export
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-Sabian AA
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Postby zen_drummer » Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:37 pm

OK, here's a bit of history for you...

Those drums are from a beginner line that ludwig had on the market called "ludwig standard" which were an entry level kit with imported hardware. The line later become "Ludwig Rockers".

Ludwig Standards were usually 3 ply shells. Ive seen them comprised of mahogany/poplar/mahogany but occasionally they mixed and matched woods including maple. The inner ply was usually coated to hide the grain.

That kit you're looking at looks like it started out life as gold sparkle, and now the toms have faded to a champagne/gingerale color.

Regarding the value, I guess 595 isn't too out of line, but considering it has no snare, it is on the high side.

A word of caution... the bass drum spurs SUCKED on those drums, and I don't even see them in the photos.

Personally, I would pass on them
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Postby Steaky » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:42 am

I'm with Zen on this. I guess maybe in 30 years time people will be selling vintage Pearl Exports. I wonder what the sound is like on these shells though, I've never played a standard before? Apparently the premier olympics from the 60's where made with mahogany but with cheap hardware but sound fantastic these days because of aging.
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Postby zen_drummer » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:41 am

Steaky wrote:I'm with Zen on this. I guess maybe in 30 years time people will be selling vintage Pearl Exports. I wonder what the sound is like on these shells though, I've never played a standard before? Apparently the premier olympics from the 60's where made with mahogany but with cheap hardware but sound fantastic these days because of aging.
Some of the Ludwig Standards sound great, some are pretty awful... it's a crapshoot.

The biggest problem with these drums is the cheap hardware. Plus at the price he's listed, he could find a set of Ludwig Classics from the same era, with no fade in the finish.
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Postby Kris » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:53 am

Mike is on the money with this one , as usual, while I love my Ludwigs-like the Accents the Standars were about as low as you can get on the food chain, pretty much a student/school model and left a bit to be desired. If your picking the up as a second kit just to tool around on - great! But I don't know that I would my make that my primary kit.
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Postby Alan_ » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:55 am

heh, I've never seen those old luddys. I was a bit taken aback by the weird badge and hardware.
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Postby Steaky » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:53 pm

Just because it's old doesn't make it a ..........."Vintage" if you know what I mean.
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Postby zen_drummer » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:25 pm

Steaky wrote:Just because it's old doesn't make it a ..........."Vintage" if you know what I mean.


Absolutely!

It is important to realize that the drums that become collectable are almost always top of the line models. "Vintage" pearl exports were the entry level... won't really go up in value over time. Rarity is often the deciding factor... cheap imports were really common no matter when they were made.

Look at Ludwig drums from the 20's and 30's... 6 lug drums (Pioneer model) are worth a small fraction of what 8 lug drums sell for, and 10 lug drums are at the top. Back when they were new, a 6 lug pioneer drum was worth roughly 30 bucks, a black beauty was 100 dollars. Today, that same pioneer snare is worth 300 bucks in average condition, the black beauty is 2500-3500 dollars. This is because they made tens of thousands of those pioneer drums, and the black beauty was a few hundred per year, or less.

There are about a trillion pearl export kits out there in the world. Not very likely they will go up in value by much.

The Ludwig Standards are certainly more rare than Pearl Exports, but the fat that they were deemed "beginner" drums makes them less desirable to a collector.

There's another factor as well, which is worth mentioning... for some reason American Made Drums seem to go up in value at a MUCH higher rate than imports, even if the imports are top of the line models. Vintage Sonor and Premier kits don't have a very solid collector value. Yamaha Recording Customs should be highly desirable based on quality, but there isn't much of a premium put on them as collectables. I would think that early TAMA Artstar drums would be a soild investment, but the value on those is lagging as well. It's the same way with vintage guitars... the American makers are through the roof, but even the highest quality imports seem to have very little, if any, collector value.

Vintage drums are trailing vintage guitars when it comes to the rate of appreciation. As 50's and 60's fender stratocasters have exceeded the 6 figure mark in some cases, there are NO vintage drums that have enjoyed this level of interest, and that tells me that the guy that starts hoarding 1960's Ludwig Kits will eventually have a hUGE pay day for his investment. (Classics... not club dates or standards)

I would suggest buying every Top-Line Ludwig Kit I could find from that era, especially in rare colors (Green Sparkle, Burgandy Sparkle, Citrus Mod, Pyschadelic Orange, Vistalite Tivoli) and if you can't do that, buy WOOD snares from the 60's and 70's, 8 or 10 lug, in rare finishes... heck... in ANY finish. Most of the kits from that era came with chrome snares, and collectors want matching snares, even if they were not original to the kit.

Another thing worth collecting is FLOOR TOMS from that era, because there were MANY kits in the early catalogues that did not include that "accessory" drum. If you have the floor tom that matches an existing kit, you can practially name your price, especially if it is a 14x14 in a rare finish. Be on the lookout for 18" kicks as well. Extra holes and refinishes are death as far as value is concerned. Look the drums over CAREFULLY!

Because they lacked market-share in the 60's and 70's, therefore they are rare, Swiv-o-matic era Rogers drums are on the rise already... Camco and Round Badge Gretsch are making their move, especially with 18" kicks... Slingerland and Ludwig from the 60's and 70's are more common and are a bit slow to get rolling, but these true vintage collectables WILL make a solid move up in value in YOUR lifetime... will you have invested wisely?
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Postby skitch » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:59 pm

zen_drummer wrote:
Steaky wrote:Just because it's old doesn't make it a ..........."Vintage" if you know what I mean.


Absolutely!

It is important to realize that the drums that become collectable are almost always top of the line models. "Vintage" pearl exports were the entry level... won't really go up in value over time. Rarity is often the deciding factor... cheap imports were really common no matter when they were made.

Look at Ludwig drums from the 20's and 30's... 6 lug drums (Pioneer model) are worth a small fraction of what 8 lug drums sell for, and 10 lug drums are at the top. Back when they were new, a 6 lug pioneer drum was worth roughly 30 bucks, a black beauty was 100 dollars. Today, that same pioneer snare is worth 300 bucks in average condition, the black beauty is 2500-3500 dollars. This is because they made tens of thousands of those pioneer drums, and the black beauty was a few hundred per year, or less.

There are about a trillion pearl export kits out there in the world. Not very likely they will go up in value by much.

The Ludwig Standards are certainly more rare than Pearl Exports, but the fat that they were deemed "beginner" drums makes them less desirable to a collector.

There's another factor as well, which is worth mentioning... for some reason American Made Drums seem to go up in value at a MUCH higher rate than imports, even if the imports are top of the line models. Vintage Sonor and Premier kits don't have a very solid collector value. Yamaha Recording Customs should be highly desirable based on quality, but there isn't much of a premium put on them as collectables. I would think that early TAMA Artstar drums would be a soild investment, but the value on those is lagging as well. It's the same way with vintage guitars... the American makers are through the roof, but even the highest quality imports seem to have very little, if any, collector value.

Vintage drums are trailing vintage guitars when it comes to the rate of appreciation. As 50's and 60's fender stratocasters have exceeded the 6 figure mark in some cases, there are NO vintage drums that have enjoyed this level of interest, and that tells me that the guy that starts hoarding 1960's Ludwig Kits will eventually have a hUGE pay day for his investment. (Classics... not club dates or standards)

I would suggest buying every Top-Line Ludwig Kit I could find from that era, especially in rare colors (Green Sparkle, Burgandy Sparkle, Citrus Mod, Pyschadelic Orange, Vistalite Tivoli) and if you can't do that, buy WOOD snares from the 60's and 70's, 8 or 10 lug, in rare finishes... heck... in ANY finish. Most of the kits from that era came with chrome snares, and collectors want matching snares, even if they were not original to the kit.

Another thing worth collecting is FLOOR TOMS from that era, because there were MANY kits in the early catalogues that did not include that "accessory" drum. If you have the floor tom that matches an existing kit, you can practially name your price, especially if it is a 14x14 in a rare finish. Be on the lookout for 18" kicks as well. Extra holes and refinishes are death as far as value is concerned. Look the drums over CAREFULLY!

Because they lacked market-share in the 60's and 70's, therefore they are rare, Swiv-o-matic era Rogers drums are on the rise already... Camco and Round Badge Gretsch are making their move, especially with 18" kicks... Slingerland and Ludwig from the 60's and 70's are more common and are a bit slow to get rolling, but these true vintage collectables WILL make a solid move up in value in YOUR lifetime... will you have invested wisely?


Holy Cow! What a ton of info you just threw out there! Hey Zen, I heard a story about how the Power Toms were thought up because manufacturers (like Ludwig) went to six ply shells and lost the bottom end of the drums that was present with the 3 ply with reinforcing ring. Is this true?

Thanks for all of the info you generously posted!
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Postby skitch » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:03 pm

Mitchell? wrote:Hahahaha.....

Sorry. Here's the link:

http://lexington.craigslist.org/msg/799148730.html


I would personally pass on this kit. It is old but not what I (or many others) would consider a Vintage Ludwig kit as it is the Standard line from Ludwig of that era. Your money would be better spent on a vintage Ludwig kit of the 3 ply design - These would either be the Keystone badges or the Blue/Olive badges (early to mid 1970s). Ludwig made the standard line up into the the early 1980s.
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Postby Steaky » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:47 am

Swap the words Vintage for Old or just plain second hand then tell me if you think it's worth it. I have noticed that people throw around the word Vintage when it comes to selling gear at just 10-15 years old. I checked out the dictionary and the word refers primarily to wine and it's quality. A vintage is a wine that was made during a season of exceptional quality at some point in time, also refers to the particular vineyard and producer. Obviously the use of the word has been transferred to cars and musical instruments. Antique is still used toward furniture, ornaments and other gadgets. I must admit to getting a little annoyed at the over use of the word, especially when I see it used for a late 80's Sabian B20 ride on Ebay.
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