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Postby Mikkey » Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:41 pm

Empyrean Drums wrote:Can you put your money where your mouth is, or is your only talent talking shit online?


I have many talents and would give you the same answer I gave here as I would give to you in person. I stand by every word I wrote in my original statement. I knew it would touch a nerve because it's one of those things no one wants to admit even possibly exists. Nothing in my world is above critique, no where is that more true than in music. I have no problem with speed itself and use it in my playing at times, but I do have a problem with speed solely for the sake of speed without any context. So not only I am willing to put my money where my mouth is...it's gonna be accruing interest.
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Postby PDP9000 » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:10 am

that would be cool.
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Postby Empyrean Drums » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:44 am

Mikkey wrote:
Empyrean Drums wrote:Can you put your money where your mouth is, or is your only talent talking shit online?


I have many talents and would give you the same answer I gave here as I would give to you in person. I stand by every word I wrote in my original statement. I knew it would touch a nerve because it's one of those things no one wants to admit even possibly exists. Nothing in my world is above critique, no where is that more true than in music. I have no problem with speed itself and use it in my playing at times, but I do have a problem with speed solely for the sake of speed without any context. So not only I am willing to put my money where my mouth is...it's gonna be accruing interest.


You'll have to site some example of speed solely for the sake of speed without any context, because I don't know who or what you're talking about.
If you not above critique, where's your example of you playing what you call easy and over-rated (or anything for that matter)? Can you do more then talk a big game or did you only bring this up after 6 months to argue online some more?
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Postby mattsmith » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:57 pm

Mikkey wrote:
Empyrean Drums wrote:Can you put your money where your mouth is, or is your only talent talking shit online?


I have many talents and would give you the same answer I gave here as I would give to you in person. I stand by every word I wrote in my original statement. I knew it would touch a nerve because it's one of those things no one wants to admit even possibly exists. Nothing in my world is above critique, no where is that more true than in music. I have no problem with speed itself and use it in my playing at times, but I do have a problem with speed solely for the sake of speed without any context. So not only I am willing to put my money where my mouth is...it's gonna be accruing interest.


Save your breath. Guys who talk this game never, ever post music and are almost always pathetic excuses for musicians, who merely hide behind words they think make them sound enlightened. All this talk with the high and mighty tone, all the catch phrases he doesn't understand, the inability to differentiate between a harmless rudiment contest for prizes (that actually gets you practicing some fundamentals for a change) and his own jealous cry for attention.

I knew it (my answer) would touch a nerve = Look mommy I'm a somebody.

What he's talking about with the asinine speed for speed's sake rant (again) is WFD...and again if he was as capable as he believed he would be able to differentiate nonmusical practice for prizes from music, alongside the fact that practice creates better music, groove and otherwise.

But you know something? I kind of believe this character actually knows what he's saying. So why does he utter something he knows is BS?

Sometimes things are exactly as they seem...It's only jealousy pretending to be a cry for something greater. He's jealous of the attention these guys get, and will do anything to keep a cork on the bottle even if some of the drummers he smack talks are great drummers like Johnny Rabb, who everybody knows has both speed and groove. And last time I looked Mangini, Verdi and Yeung were no slouches either. Nope, pathetic, embittered, hypocritical jealousy is the only reason.

And the irony of said jealousy is that so many WFD champions know they still have a long road before acheiving top end musicianship. I know for a fact that Billy Ray from this forum could groove me into a hole. But I also notice that Billy Ray is comfortable in his own skin and knows how tall he stands, and that when he's commented about this WFD stuff, it hasn't been the over the top hater garbage you see from this insecure Mikkey wanker. That's no coincidence.

Even funnier is how all the negativity keeps this harmless sideline of ours bigger than anyone ever intended. Every time there's a WFD flame war on a forum or a youtube video, thousands flock to it like mosquitos on a light bulb. Believe me when I say that the haters think about it far more than us. You guys want to keep people talking about it? Well...continue your negativity. I am always shocked when a TV show wants me to do something because a bunch of know it all youtube wankers can't resist their negative trolling.

OK Josh Freese doesn't like it. Is that supposed to negate all other discussion? Give me a break. I know for a fact he's never seen one, and he would never be up to placing in a final, AND I'm sorry but over the top remarks have to play into that.

Does this take away from him being a great drummer?...Of course not.

Is he a better more seasoned player than me?...Yep.

But he's got something else coming if he thinks I'm supposed to be intimidated by his opinions on something he knows absolutely nothing about.

Then you can add to him the legions of famous drummers, known for speed, who dabbled in our little event and dropped face first in the dirt, then lied like hell and intentionally dissed the contest to cover their tracks. I especially enjoy the ones who encourage their fanboys to slander on their behalf. It's also funny that guys like Freese will give their empty 2c when guys like Jim Chapin (probably the top drum teacher in history) and Jim Kirkpatrick (the greatest pipe drummer who ever lived) go to WFD in Anaheim and hang out for hours. But I guess guys like Mikkey know better ...huh?

Straight up, xdoseonex from this forum can decimate almost all the famous drummers if it came to a speed foot war. That's what so many of these guys don't like, and that's why we see the downplay. I never will forget a WFD where this mega famous drummer was going to compete then suddenly said he was busy after he hung around the stage for ten minutes, while a guy who is absolutely one of the most famous drummers on earth showed up with sticks in hand and just stood there. There's a reason for that, and believe me...musicality never crossed anyone's mind. They saw first hand what they were marching into and thought better of it. They sure weren't busy when they stood there like deer in the headlights. Crap, if I was supposed to be some foot phenom and I saw Mike Mallais doing what was supposed to be my thing, I'd be looking for my car.

When I first became involved in this a little over 2 years ago, I never planned to become so vocal until I came to these forums and read the crap that constantly streams out of the brains of idiots and wankers who can't play, who only say things they know aren't true to put a better face on their sorry excuse for lives, or the fact that they would rather slam WFD to spam for the Guitar Center drumoff and pretend they're not, because it's bad for business to have a competing event at another music store.

Now I know there is a segment of genuinely concerned great musicians who merely disagree with this thing, and that's cool. Much respect. Honestly I wish all drummers the very best in their musical endeavors. But you WFD obsessed haters with your catch phrases and salt/pepper reasoning simply need to move on. Your argument was always a house of cards to begin with, and I'm not so sure you get the free BS pass anymore. If you're going to lecture like you're Moses coming down with the Ten Comandments, then it's going to be put up or shut up.
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Postby Mikkey » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:08 pm

Empyrean Drums wrote:Can you do more then talk a big game or did you only bring this up after 6 months to argue online some more?


That was the first time I revisted the topic since the original post. I wouldn't read anything into "6 months after the fact" other than I don't troll this board enough to keep up with every topic.
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Postby Mikkey » Sun Nov 11, 2007 12:40 pm

mattsmith wrote:Save your breath. Guys who talk this game never, ever post music and are almost always pathetic excuses for musicians, who merely hide behind words they think make them sound enlightened. All this talk with the high and mighty tone, all the catch phrases he doesn't understand, the inability to differentiate between a harmless rudiment contest for prizes (that actually gets you practicing some fundamentals for a change) and his own jealous cry for attention.

I knew it (my answer) would touch a nerve = Look mommy I'm a somebody.

What he's talking about with the asinine speed for speed's sake rant (again) is WFD...and again if he was as capable as he believed he would be able to differentiate nonmusical practice for prizes from music, alongside the fact that practice creates better music, groove and otherwise.

But you know something? I kind of believe this character actually knows what he's saying. So why does he utter something he knows is BS?

Sometimes things are exactly as they seem...It's only jealousy pretending to be a cry for something greater. He's jealous of the attention these guys get, and will do anything to keep a cork on the bottle even if some of the drummers he smack talks are great drummers like Johnny Rabb, who everybody knows has both speed and groove. And last time I looked Mangini, Verdi and Yeung were no slouches either. Nope, pathetic, embittered, hypocritical jealousy is the only reason.

And the irony of said jealousy is that so many WFD champions know they still have a long road before acheiving top end musicianship. I know for a fact that Billy Ray from this forum could groove me into a hole. But I also notice that Billy Ray is comfortable in his own skin and knows how tall he stands, and that when he's commented about this WFD stuff, it hasn't been the over the top hater garbage you see from this insecure Mikkey wanker. That's no coincidence.

Even funnier is how all the negativity keeps this harmless sideline of ours bigger than anyone ever intended. Every time there's a WFD flame war on a forum or a youtube video, thousands flock to it like mosquitos on a light bulb. Believe me when I say that the haters think about it far more than us. You guys want to keep people talking about it? Well...continue your negativity. I am always shocked when a TV show wants me to do something because a bunch of know it all youtube wankers can't resist their negative trolling.

OK Josh Freese doesn't like it. Is that supposed to negate all other discussion? Give me a break. I know for a fact he's never seen one, and he would never be up to placing in a final, AND I'm sorry but over the top remarks have to play into that.

Does this take away from him being a great drummer?...Of course not.

Is he a better more seasoned player than me?...Yep.

But he's got something else coming if he thinks I'm supposed to be intimidated by his opinions on something he knows absolutely nothing about.

Then you can add to him the legions of famous drummers, known for speed, who dabbled in our little event and dropped face first in the dirt, then lied like hell and intentionally dissed the contest to cover their tracks. I especially enjoy the ones who encourage their fanboys to slander on their behalf. It's also funny that guys like Freese will give their empty 2c when guys like Jim Chapin (probably the top drum teacher in history) and Jim Kirkpatrick (the greatest pipe drummer who ever lived) go to WFD in Anaheim and hang out for hours. But I guess guys like Mikkey know better ...huh?

Straight up, xdoseonex from this forum can decimate almost all the famous drummers if it came to a speed foot war. That's what so many of these guys don't like, and that's why we see the downplay. I never will forget a WFD where this mega famous drummer was going to compete then suddenly said he was busy after he hung around the stage for ten minutes, while a guy who is absolutely one of the most famous drummers on earth showed up with sticks in hand and just stood there. There's a reason for that, and believe me...musicality never crossed anyone's mind. They saw first hand what they were marching into and thought better of it. They sure weren't busy when they stood there like deer in the headlights. Crap, if I was supposed to be some foot phenom and I saw Mike Mallais doing what was supposed to be my thing, I'd be looking for my car.

When I first became involved in this a little over 2 years ago, I never planned to become so vocal until I came to these forums and read the crap that constantly streams out of the brains of idiots and wankers who can't play, who only say things they know aren't true to put a better face on their sorry excuse for lives, or the fact that they would rather slam WFD to spam for the Guitar Center drumoff and pretend they're not, because it's bad for business to have a competing event at another music store.

Now I know there is a segment of genuinely concerned great musicians who merely disagree with this thing, and that's cool. Much respect. Honestly I wish all drummers the very best in their musical endeavors. But you WFD obsessed haters with your catch phrases and salt/pepper reasoning simply need to move on. Your argument was always a house of cards to begin with, and I'm not so sure you get the free BS pass anymore. If you're going to lecture like you're Moses coming down with the Ten Comandments, then it's going to be put up or shut up.


That's the great thing about this board, you talk honestly about how you view different drum and music topics but don't go against the hegemon...that'd be trouble. I never got as excited as this (above) when I was talking about the topic. Just look at the amount of words you devoted to this, and I'm the one "who is desperate for attention"? Predication all the way. I ask myself, "Do I really care about this subject as much as 'mattsmith' or the other guy does?" No, no I don't.
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Postby mattsmith » Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:50 pm

Mikkey wrote:
That's the great thing about this board, you talk honestly about how you view different drum and music topics but don't go against the hegemon...that'd be trouble. I never got as excited as this (above) when I was talking about the topic. Just look at the amount of words you devoted to this, and I'm the one "who is desperate for attention"? Predication all the way. I ask myself, "Do I really care about this subject as much as 'mattsmith' or the other guy does?" No, no I don't.


That's the great thing about this board. An anonymous wanker who has yet to prove he even plays the drums, after being thoroughly dismantled by several guys on this thread:

1. Clumsily spins why he came back after six months when he was pretty sure the original guys weren't still around.

2. Tells you how not to read into that.

3., Tries asinine role reversal angle on a guy who just called him out for attention grabbing, by saying that he in fact was the one desperately in search of attention, when said guy got to rebuttal late because he was watching an interview of himself on CNN, the same time Mikkey here was anxiously scribbling his ingenious well but post (sorry not trying to self prop, but it was relevant).

But go ahead man, deflect from the topic you helped create by telling us again of your many talents. And try not to use the word predication out of context. If you're going to use fancy words, use them correctly. Come on slick, you can do it.

The dude doesn't like a lot of words, so I'll just give him just two more.

Post video.

Guess you forgot to do that huh?

Anything else you'd like to add?
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Postby imjeffcanudigit » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:59 pm

dude i LOVE groove and speed.
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Postby drumur » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:43 am

A lot of dance able grooves that are recorded at a slow to moderate tempo don't groove unless you play them at that tempo.
If you play a pocket song live and speed it up, it ruins the groove and the pocket. The faster a song is, the less space between the notes, so the less it breathes and the less it creates a pocket. Unless you're TOP...LOL
Look at something like "Tell Me Somethin Good." If you play that faster it wouldn't sound as intense.
I saw a Yogi Horton video the other day...that's a good one for how to approach a groove and create a feel and a pocket. It's about subdivisions and accenting in the right places and ghosting in the right places.
He approaches grooves the same way I do with the accents and the feel.
Check it out if you can get a hold of it.
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Re: Maybe not the world's slowest, but.........

Postby B-RAD52 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:03 am

win_daddy wrote:I agree about being able to play a straight groove being the most important thing. It's got to FEEL good. It's all about the feel.

This may not be the world's SLOWEST, but I believe it's the world's LONGEST song.......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2728595.stm


i love john cage. we play a lot of that in percussion ensemble at my school. we did music for pieces of wood and now we are doing living room music. but my favorite is when he phases. that is sooooo stinking cool.
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Postby B-RAD52 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:07 am

Rob the Drummer wrote:
BillRayDrums wrote:The last word-

Nobody EVER got fired for playing too much groove.

Thankyoudrivethru


Bill, that's a great point. You gotta understand that there are people on here who play for sheer enjoyment and not for work. :wink: I used to play for work, now I do it for enjoyment, however you know that I feel groove is the most important thing about drumming and speed is just a flavor.

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Postby B-RAD52 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:32 am

for me, both are very important. most times, i like to groove and sit in the pocket, then do a very fast fill, then go sit in the pocket. its really up in the air about which is better or more important. 40 years ago, id say grooving was, but now with the rise of so much metal, speed is rising as well. the best is to have both (obviously) :D . if you can groove at a really fast tempo...you got something. but i havent quite found that yet... :(
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Postby dwtoast72 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:38 am

screamkevin wrote:One of the toughest things to do is what I pride myself on: groove. Speed is over-rated to me. You can't use it all the time, so don't focus on it.

Anyone who can and chooses to play double kick at 250bpm, I have a challenge for you. Sit down at your kit with a metronome. Set it at about 80-90bpm. Play 8ths on the hats, play the kick at 1&3, and the snare at 2&4. Make a groove out of it. And once you've found that groove, make it as nasty as you can. Play that groove for 30 minutes straight, without stopping.

Oh, I forgot...the hard part:

NO FILLS AT ALL. Not a tom roll, not an accent, not a crash, NOTHING.

If you can do that, you've got drumming 90% licked.

Chops are awesome to watch, but groove drummers get all the studio work. Remember that.

i'm gonna try this.... point taken
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Postby xdoseonex » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:46 am

people just cant tell the different between a contest and song. Theyre like "you can dance to that". who the hell would ever dance to blistering singlestrokes. when basketball players have a shootout, do you see everyone saying "yeah but thias guy sucks i bet he cant pass or guard". a shootout isnt a game of basketball. a wfd contest isnt a song. or a performance. practicing for a wfd contest does wonders for pedal and stick control. most of the wfd's best competitors pratcticed slow to get where they are. theres alot more to it for me than just speed. its really about becoming one with the stick or pedal,understanding the way it moves and the way you control it. I'v sat there for hours just playig slow single strokes and paying attention to the way the pedal reacts to my foot. or the stick reats to my hand. but at the end of the day. its a contest. to see how ast you can play single strokes. simpe as that. ever flaming wfd flamer has flamed for the same flaming reason. they dnt understand one thing. ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE MUSIC
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Postby Brother_Bong » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:09 am

xdoseonex wrote:people just cant tell the different between a contest and song. Theyre like "you can dance to that". who the hell would ever dance to blistering singlestrokes. when basketball players have a shootout, do you see everyone saying "yeah but thias guy sucks i bet he cant pass or guard". a shootout isnt a game of basketball. a wfd contest isnt a song. or a performance. practicing for a wfd contest does wonders for pedal and stick control. most of the wfd's best competitors pratcticed slow to get where they are. theres alot more to it for me than just speed. its really about becoming one with the stick or pedal,understanding the way it moves and the way you control it. I'v sat there for hours just playig slow single strokes and paying attention to the way the pedal reacts to my foot. or the stick reats to my hand. but at the end of the day. its a contest. to see how ast you can play single strokes. simpe as that. ever flaming wfd flamer has flamed for the same flaming reason. they dnt understand one thing. ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE MUSIC

This concept is lost on many people, pity.
Look at drag racing as opposed to Nascar, as opposed to F1, all different tests of skills.
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