Why is Danny Carey so great?

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SGarrett
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Post Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:31 pm

tchfunkta wrote:
SGarrett wrote:
tchfunkta wrote:
my comments on time signature seem to not be understood. i'm not DE-emphasizing feel by saying that one should know the actual time signature. marco makes those weird times feel good, and probably doesn't count to 17 really fast in his head when he's playing, but he KNOWS it's 17 and not just four with funny accents.


No, people are understanding you but you don't seem to be understanding them. Many of the top teachers in the world explain things as combinations in 4/4, because it makes things easier to grasp. Everything else is phrasing. Period. You don't need to know what time signature you're in if you know how to phrase. It's also often said that the best drummers can make any time signature feel like 4/4. There is no one correct way to approach this topic.


I understand them perfectly, thank you. I'm well aware of the need to make time signatures sound fluid and that some may resemble or add up 4/4, but all of the top teachers you mention, if asked, could play in 7/8, or 13/8, etc., without hesitation, and can count them. These combinations in 4/4 only work in SOME cases, like the Lateralus example. The main groove he plays on the toms afterwards is in 5/8 and it's just that, not some twisted 4 with odd accents. while pros can make these things sound as if they were just in 4, they have the experience counting out signatures and reading music and busting ass, so lets stop pretending like, as break the prism said, "Time signature doesn't really matter. It's pretty much just a written reference for musicians if they end up having to read the notation." Yeah, you can just listen and play along and fake it, but whatever happened to golly-gosh-darn-gee-wilikers-I'm-sure-getting-too-upset-over-nothing education about music and your instrument?


You completely missed my point. Great job. :)

You need to calm down, right now. Once you do that you'll understand that you're talking about a theory. Like all theories, it's the practical application that differentiates practitioners.

By the way, don't talk to me or any other member of this site like that again.
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break the prism
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Post Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:24 pm

tchfunkta wrote: These combinations in 4/4 only work in SOME cases, like the Lateralus example. The main groove he plays on the toms afterwards is in 5/8 and it's just that, not some twisted 4 with odd accents.


i never said that adding meters up to 4/4 can be done all of the time. it obviously can't. i also never said that it should be done that way all of the time, or at all for that matter.


Yeah, you can just listen and play along and fake it, but whatever happened to golly-gosh-darn-gee-wilikers-I'm-sure-getting-too-upset-over-nothing education about music and your instrument?


"Master your instrument, master the music, then forget all that shit and just play." - Charlie Parker

^That's what happened.
Beat on.
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Post Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:11 pm

SGarrett wrote:
tchfunkta wrote:
SGarrett wrote:
tchfunkta wrote:
my comments on time signature seem to not be understood. i'm not DE-emphasizing feel by saying that one should know the actual time signature. marco makes those weird times feel good, and probably doesn't count to 17 really fast in his head when he's playing, but he KNOWS it's 17 and not just four with funny accents.


No, people are understanding you but you don't seem to be understanding them. Many of the top teachers in the world explain things as combinations in 4/4, because it makes things easier to grasp. Everything else is phrasing. Period. You don't need to know what time signature you're in if you know how to phrase. It's also often said that the best drummers can make any time signature feel like 4/4. There is no one correct way to approach this topic.


I understand them perfectly, thank you. I'm well aware of the need to make time signatures sound fluid and that some may resemble or add up 4/4, but all of the top teachers you mention, if asked, could play in 7/8, or 13/8, etc., without hesitation, and can count them. These combinations in 4/4 only work in SOME cases, like the Lateralus example. The main groove he plays on the toms afterwards is in 5/8 and it's just that, not some twisted 4 with odd accents. while pros can make these things sound as if they were just in 4, they have the experience counting out signatures and reading music and busting ass, so lets stop pretending like, as break the prism said, "Time signature doesn't really matter. It's pretty much just a written reference for musicians if they end up having to read the notation." Yeah, you can just listen and play along and fake it, but whatever happened to education about music and your instrument?


You completely missed my point. Great job. :)

You need to calm down, right now. Once you do that you'll understand that you're talking about a theory. Like all theories, it's the practical application that differentiates practitioners.

By the way, don't talk to me or any other member of this site like that again.


don't talk down to me if you want me calm. and we're not 4 year olds who can't handle a swear word, so please don't touch my entries. lots of metal drummers here, i think they've heard the word fuck before. are you going to PM like you've done to other members if i continue to disagree with you?

i am passionate about learning music and learning theory rather than dealing with a lot of lack of education out there where people don't know how to read music or play time signatures without having to hear it and just kinda copy what they're hearing. i wish this forum addressed more musical issues like this. people are more worried about gear than learning how to play music, and drummers need extreme competency in the playing of time signatures. all of the great drummers DO know what time signature they're in even if they're making it feel like an extended or contracted 4, for example. i'm sick of people just wanting to "feel" it not knowing what the hell they're doing. of course it's all about feel, but you have to know what you're feeling. danny carey KNOWS his time signatures. period.
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Post Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:57 pm

tchfunkta wrote:don't talk down to me if you want me calm. and we're not 4 year olds who can't handle a swear word, so please don't touch my entries. lots of metal drummers here, i think they've heard the word fuck before. are you going to PM like you've done to other members if i continue to disagree with you?


HAHA!!! i'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic. gd man, get a sense of humor.

i'd also like to add that if garret did edit your post it was quite hysterical cause i laughed, alot actually. i really thought you were being funny.
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SGarrett
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Post Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:29 pm

tchfunkta wrote:
SGarrett wrote:
tchfunkta wrote:
SGarrett wrote:
tchfunkta wrote:
my comments on time signature seem to not be understood. i'm not DE-emphasizing feel by saying that one should know the actual time signature. marco makes those weird times feel good, and probably doesn't count to 17 really fast in his head when he's playing, but he KNOWS it's 17 and not just four with funny accents.


No, people are understanding you but you don't seem to be understanding them. Many of the top teachers in the world explain things as combinations in 4/4, because it makes things easier to grasp. Everything else is phrasing. Period. You don't need to know what time signature you're in if you know how to phrase. It's also often said that the best drummers can make any time signature feel like 4/4. There is no one correct way to approach this topic.


I understand them perfectly, thank you. I'm well aware of the need to make time signatures sound fluid and that some may resemble or add up 4/4, but all of the top teachers you mention, if asked, could play in 7/8, or 13/8, etc., without hesitation, and can count them. These combinations in 4/4 only work in SOME cases, like the Lateralus example. The main groove he plays on the toms afterwards is in 5/8 and it's just that, not some twisted 4 with odd accents. while pros can make these things sound as if they were just in 4, they have the experience counting out signatures and reading music and busting ass, so lets stop pretending like, as break the prism said, "Time signature doesn't really matter. It's pretty much just a written reference for musicians if they end up having to read the notation." Yeah, you can just listen and play along and fake it, but whatever happened to education about music and your instrument?


You completely missed my point. Great job. :)

You need to calm down, right now. Once you do that you'll understand that you're talking about a theory. Like all theories, it's the practical application that differentiates practitioners.

By the way, don't talk to me or any other member of this site like that again.


don't talk down to me if you want me calm. and we're not 4 year olds who can't handle a swear word, so please don't touch my entries. lots of metal drummers here, i think they've heard the word fuck before. are you going to PM like you've done to other members if i continue to disagree with you?

i am passionate about learning music and learning theory rather than dealing with a lot of lack of education out there where people don't know how to read music or play time signatures without having to hear it and just kinda copy what they're hearing. i wish this forum addressed more musical issues like this. people are more worried about gear than learning how to play music, and drummers need extreme competency in the playing of time signatures. all of the great drummers DO know what time signature they're in even if they're making it feel like an extended or contracted 4, for example. i'm sick of people just wanting to "feel" it not knowing what the hell they're doing. of course it's all about feel, but you have to know what you're feeling. danny carey KNOWS his time signatures. period.


Stop acting like a child and I'll stop treating you like one. It's that simple. If you keep acting like a child and step far enough over the line, yes I will send you a PM. I'll also edit your offending post to make you look even worse than you make yourself look. It has nothing to do with whether or not you agree with me or any other moderator and everything to do with you listening to t he authority of the site. As for your language, I shouldn't have to explain what a disrespectful tone is. Flame war style posting is not permitted here and that's not my rule. Deal with it.

Are you so arrogant that you think you're the only person here who's passionate about playing and improving? Seriously, you need to take a giant step back, man. Show me where one person has said that great drummers don't know what time signature they're in, since you insist on arguing against that point. Odd time signatures evolved around musical phrasing, which is felt. That's what the greats do, they play the phrase not the page. For instance, take a series of trading fours in 4/4, which gives you 32 8th notes or 64 16th notes. The possibilities for phrasing in odd time signatures is astounding, but at the end of it all you're coming back in on 4/4. That's why the greats explain it that way, because that's the practical application of the theory. Think about this, are you concerned with the patterns of your speech or do you know them well enough to just feel them?

And when it gets right down to it, why do you care that much how other people play? You need to worry more about yourself and less about other people or you're going to end becoming very bitter. Maybe you're being replaced by less technically skilled players who have better feel and are already bitter? It would explain the attitude.

Metaldrummer89 wrote:
tchfunkta wrote:don't talk down to me if you want me calm. and we're not 4 year olds who can't handle a swear word, so please don't touch my entries. lots of metal drummers here, i think they've heard the word fuck before. are you going to PM like you've done to other members if i continue to disagree with you?


HAHA!!! i'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic. gd man, get a sense of humor.

i'd also like to add that if garret did edit your post it was quite hysterical cause i laughed, alot actually. i really thought you were being funny.


Nope, that was me. :)
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Post Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:37 pm

tchfunkta wrote:
SGarrett wrote:
tchfunkta wrote:
SGarrett wrote:
tchfunkta wrote:
my comments on time signature seem to not be understood. i'm not DE-emphasizing feel by saying that one should know the actual time signature. marco makes those weird times feel good, and probably doesn't count to 17 really fast in his head when he's playing, but he KNOWS it's 17 and not just four with funny accents.


No, people are understanding you but you don't seem to be understanding them. Many of the top teachers in the world explain things as combinations in 4/4, because it makes things easier to grasp. Everything else is phrasing. Period. You don't need to know what time signature you're in if you know how to phrase. It's also often said that the best drummers can make any time signature feel like 4/4. There is no one correct way to approach this topic.


I understand them perfectly, thank you. I'm well aware of the need to make time signatures sound fluid and that some may resemble or add up 4/4, but all of the top teachers you mention, if asked, could play in 7/8, or 13/8, etc., without hesitation, and can count them. These combinations in 4/4 only work in SOME cases, like the Lateralus example. The main groove he plays on the toms afterwards is in 5/8 and it's just that, not some twisted 4 with odd accents. while pros can make thesethings sound as if they were just in 4, they have the experience counting out signatures and reading music and busting ass, so lets stop pretending like, as break the prism said, "Time signature doesn't really matter. It's pretty much just a written reference for musicians if they end up having to read the notation." Yeah, you can just listen and play along and fake it, but whatever happened to education about music and your instrument?


You completely missed my point. Great job. :)

You need to calm down, right now. Once you do that you'll understand that you're talking about a theory. Like all theories, it's the practical application that differentiates practitioners.

By the way, don't talk to me or any other member of this site like that again.


don't talk down to me if you want me calm. and we're not 4 year olds who can't handle a swear word, so please don't touch my entries. lots of metal drummers here, i think they've heard the word fuck before. are you going to PM like you've done to other members if i continue to disagree with you?

i am passionate about learning music and learning theory rather than dealing with a lot of lack of education out there where people don't know how to read music or play time signatures without having to hear it and just kinda copy what they're hearing. i wish this forum addressed more musical issues like this. people are more worried about gear than learning how to play music, and drummers need extreme competency in the playing of time signatures. all of the great drummers DO know what time signature they're in even if they're making it feel like an extended or contracted 4, for example. i'm sick of people just wanting to "feel" it not knowing what the hell they're doing. of course it's all about feel, but you have to know what you're feeling. danny carey KNOWS his time signatures. period.


No-one here has claimed that great drummers don't know about time signature or that they don't need to.

My claim about time signature not being an extremely important factor when playing music was merely a reiteration of a point that great musicians have been making since the bebop era and possibly before.
"It's good to know what you're playing, but it's even better to know what you're feeling" - Miles Davis
Was he wrong?

BB King doesn't know anything about music theory. In interviews he can't even name the chords he's playing. Are you saying he's not a great musician?

Mull that over.

The problem with you is that you're an elitist. You say you're passionate about music but then you say that you're "sick" of people who think it's more important to feel what you're playing than to have specific musical knowledge. You have the audacity to put yourself above the many other drummers on this forum that have a huge amount of passion for their music and an extensive level of musical knowledge, often beyond that which applies to the drum kit.
Beat on.
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Post Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:57 pm

man yall fight too much i made this post so i could educate myself about danny carey, not time signatures.

its not a big deal but man you guys got off topic a little....

and got carried away...

and made me laugh a little...

but seriously yall just chill
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Post Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:03 pm

Man, who opened this can of bees? All this flap over the technical prowess of a speed thrash metal drummer. Okay, we get it, Danny Carey is an awesome drummer. So are a lot of other guys. We all have our favorites. Also, I'm with SGarrett, I think we can discuss gear and chops on here without profanity and getting our undies in a melvin. We'll all be better off if we stick to bashing our drums and not each other. Keep rockin'................
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Post Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:16 pm

Unlocked after reaching an understanding.

I ask that everyone keep an open mind to a following post. Please and thank you. :)
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Post Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:43 pm

apparenly we were all punished with DML timeout.
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Post Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:02 am

iatemygoat wrote:apparenly we were all punished with DML timeout.


Really, did Greg take the whole site down for a while? ;)
"If the goal is for me to give up my reality for your reality, then the goal is for me to give up my self for your self--a goal I have to reject."
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Post Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:30 am

SGarrett wrote:
iatemygoat wrote:apparenly we were all punished with DML timeout.


Really, did Greg take the whole site down for a while? ;)


I dunno, if he did, I didn't even notice! This is a great thing Greg has goin' here. I know we get some doofus's now and again, but I really like swappin' ideas about gear and stuff with you guys, and I'm really lookin' forward to the Roadtrip. I think it's awesome that Zen and Bong are making this happen. I'm gonna be pissed if I can't fit it into my schedule, but if I can't make it, I'm gonna make damn sure I get to the second annual show. Anyhow, be good everybody, God bless and keep bashin'...............Liquidrummr.
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Post Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:02 am

Guys, I'm sorry if I came off too strong about my point of view and was too harsh. I was shocked when I saw the comment "Time signature doesn't really matter. It's pretty much just a written reference for musicians if they end up having to read the notation" and I feel very strongly against that sentence. If I went over the top with it, I do apologize.

I don't know if liquidrummr meant me as the "doofus" or not (it was implied), but I'll go ahead and ignore the bait if so as I'm trying to be genuine here and don't need another fight to be thoughtlessly picked.
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Post Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:14 am

tchfunkta wrote:Guys, I'm sorry if I came off too strong about my point of view and was too harsh. I was shocked when I saw the comment "Time signature doesn't really matter. It's pretty much just a written reference for musicians if they end up having to read the notation" and I feel very strongly against that sentence. If I went over the top with it, I do apologize.

I don't know if liquidrummr meant me as the "doofus" or not (it was implied), but I'll go ahead and ignore the bait if so as I'm trying to be genuine here and don't need another fight to be thoughtlessly picked.


Hey friend, the doofus reference wasn't aimed at you in particular. Hey, we all have our own preferences and favorite drummers and such. I just appreciate this forum where we can exchange ideas and discuss everything drums. No hard feelins'.
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Post Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:51 am

liquidrummr wrote:
tchfunkta wrote:Guys, I'm sorry if I came off too strong about my point of view and was too harsh. I was shocked when I saw the comment "Time signature doesn't really matter. It's pretty much just a written reference for musicians if they end up having to read the notation" and I feel very strongly against that sentence. If I went over the top with it, I do apologize.

I don't know if liquidrummr meant me as the "doofus" or not (it was implied), but I'll go ahead and ignore the bait if so as I'm trying to be genuine here and don't need another fight to be thoughtlessly picked.


Hey friend, the doofus reference wasn't aimed at you in particular. Hey, we all have our own preferences and favorite drummers and such. I just appreciate this forum where we can exchange ideas and discuss everything drums. No hard feelins'.


i see a big DML hug coming on.
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